#401 Why Vitamin D Supplements Could Be Making You Worse with Morley Robbins

This week on The Less Stressed Life Podcast, I’m joined by Morley Robbins, creator of the Root Cause Protocol and expert in mineral metabolism, to unpack why high-dose vitamin D supplements might actually be making your symptoms worse instead of better.

In this eye-opening conversation, we talk about why low vitamin D on a lab doesn’t always mean deficiency, how inflammation and hidden infections can disrupt vitamin D metabolism, and why minerals like magnesium, copper, and retinol are critical for proper function. If you're struggling with fatigue, hormone issues, or have been told you’re vitamin D deficient, this episode will help you rethink your approach to healing.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

• What low vitamin D really means and why it may be a sign of inflammation
• How infections and immune dysfunction impact vitamin D metabolism
• The vital roles of magnesium, copper, and retinol in supporting vitamin D
• Why supplementing vitamin D without cofactors can make symptoms worse
• How to test for both storage and active vitamin D
• How to safely restore mineral balance using the Root Cause Protocol

Megan Mangin's paper mentioned in episode: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25048990/

ABOUT GUEST:
Morley Robbins is the creator of the Root Cause Protocol and founder of the Magnesium Advocacy Group. Known as the “Magnesium Man,” Morley left a decades-long career in hospital administration after a personal healing experience led him to question everything he thought he knew about health. Since then, he’s become a passionate educator on mineral balance, performing thousands of consults and digging deep into the roles of magnesium, copper, and iron in chronic illness. Through his research and coaching, Morley helps people get to the root cause of fatigue, inflammation, and hormonal imbalances—one mineral at a time.

WHERE TO FIND:
Website: https://therootcauseprotocol.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/therootcauseprotocol/

WHERE TO FIND CHRISTA:
Website: https://www.christabiegler.com/
Instagram: @anti.inflammatory.nutritionist
Podcast Instagram: @lessstressedlife
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lessstressedlife

SPONSOR:
Thanks to Jigsaw Health for sponsoring this episode! Struggling with dry, cracked hands? Try their Alaska Cod Liver Oil for omega-3s + vitamins A & D to support skin and immune health. Use code LESSSTRESSED10 at JigsawHealth.com for 10% off—unlimited use!

WORK WITH CHRISTA:
I've streamlined my proven method to help you get to the REAL root of eczema and food sensitivities—without the overwhelm. Join the program at christabiegler.com before doors close!

Transcript

[00:00:00] Morley Robbins: another reason why we should be in the sunshine is that sunlight, not just synthesizes vitamin D, it stimulates the breakdown of vitamin A into the retinoids, into the retinoic acids.

[00:00:16] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm your host, Christa Biegler, and I'm going to guess we have at least one thing in common that we're both in pursuit of a less stress life. On the show, I'll be interviewing experts and sharing clinical pearls from my years of practice to support high performing health savvy women in pursuit of abundance and a less stressed life.

[00:00:46] Christa Biegler, RD: One of my beliefs is that we always have options for getting the results we want. So let's see what's out there together.

[00:01:03] Christa Biegler, RD: Today on the Less stressed life, I have Morley Robbins, previously widely, maybe still majorly known as the Magnesium Man. I don't know if that we're still using that one Be Anymore, but is really the creator of Root Cause Protocol and the founder maybe. The initial claim to fame was really that founder of the Magnesium Advocacy Group.

[00:01:23] Christa Biegler, RD: He has a degree in biology from Dentist University and an MBA in healthcare administration from George Washington. He transitioned from a 32 year career in hospital administration to focus on natural healing after a personal health crisis. He's conducted over 7,500 consultations worldwide, emphasizing the critical roles of magnesium, copper, and iron in health.

[00:01:43] Christa Biegler, RD: And his work aims to address chronic fatigue and disease by correcting mineral imbalances and oxidative stress through the root cause protocol. Welcome to the show, Morley. 

[00:01:55] Morley Robbins: Thank you. Great to be here. Looking forward to our discussion. 

[00:01:58] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah, I was telling him this morning, I was first introduced to the Root Cause protocol about five years ago, and as probably like most, it was like eye opening from the person I was getting the secondhand information from, or just parts of it.

[00:02:15] Christa Biegler, RD: Talking about vitamin A. I believe our conversation was a nerdy conversation about vitamin A and what I really appreciated, what I can really get behind a hundred percent is I had done a lot of comprehensive micronutrient testing for a long time and it was fun for a while and we got some good results, but I was really getting disillusioned by the lack of synergy over time.

[00:02:36] Christa Biegler, RD: And I really wanted less is more with supplements. And so that's why I have. This is why like I've warmly wrapped my arms around concepts as that Marley has shared because of synergistic. This is what I wanted. I was sick of seeing people on so many supplements. And then the worst thing ever was if they would come back to me years later on the same things.

[00:03:00] Christa Biegler, RD: I was like, oh my gosh, why are you still on this thing? And so I was looking for a solution to this woe of mine. And so I even talk about this a lot now, it's just that I really am looking at a synergy nutrient synergy. And so that's, I think where that's maybe not where things started for morally, but I think that's a really good hat to hang on, in my opinion is food-based.

[00:03:24] Christa Biegler, RD: Synergistic nutrition is how I got introduced. And appreciate his work. So I. I'm wondering today we have a topic, we'll see how many tangents. You and I are both, I think tangent people. So buckle up everyone. But today we are tasked with talking through a topic that I think has been maybe too long coming here, which is, let's not look at vitamin D two surface level.

[00:03:50] Christa Biegler, RD: Let's unpack it a little bit more. But before we go there, I want, I always ask people a little bit about their story of like why did you leave the incredible life of 32 years of healthcare administration? What was happening in life? Like where did some of this start for you? And then I'd like to ask us a little bit about Root Cross protocol before we get into some of our content for today.

[00:04:10] Christa Biegler, RD: But where did it all start for you? 

[00:04:12] Morley Robbins: As I mentioned in our. Warmup. I grew up in a very sickly family. My sister became a nurse. I was supposed to become a doctor until I got to college. It's a lot of work. Didn't get into medical school. Thank God that would've been a disaster. And if you don't go to medical school, if you really wanna stay in the health field, you go into administration.

[00:04:36] Morley Robbins: So I went to business school and was pretty good at, it was never was in charge of the hospital per se. It was never the CEO, but I was always reporting to the CEO, focusing on growth, business development, marketing, things of that nature, planning. And I was pretty good at helping organizations grow and did the formal work in hospitals and hospital systems for 12 years, and then for 20 years was a consultant.

[00:05:05] Morley Robbins: Solving problems all over the country. And when you are a consultant, you're on a plane most of your life. And so I was dragging a suitcase behind my back for a lot the bulk of those 20 years and developed what's called frozen shoulder. Couldn't pick my hand up above my waist and went to a health food store to see what they could do.

[00:05:28] Morley Robbins: They said you need to go see Dr. Liz. And I put my hands up and said, look, I don't do which crab. 'cause I knew that meant chiropractor said, what? What kind of supplements do you have? They sold me supplements. They didn't work. I went back a couple months later and the owner Lynn Bednar was there that day.

[00:05:46] Morley Robbins: And she looked me in the eye. She said, Morley, we love you. Go see Dr. Liz. So with my tail between my legs. I wanted to see Dr. Lewis, who's now my wife. I might add, 

[00:05:58] Christa Biegler, RD: oh, 

[00:06:00] Morley Robbins: it was a life-changing experience, and the way she solved my frozen shoulder is by going on the inside of my mouth to the intergrade muscle and put the full weight of her body on that joint, in that muscle.

[00:06:15] Morley Robbins: And as the as the pressure that she was producing matched the tension in that muscle, my arm went up and it was a miracle. And I was like, very impressed. And she's, we were talking about that process and she used a phrase I'd never heard in 32 years of working in hospitals. She talked about the innate healer.

[00:06:43] Morley Robbins: I'd never heard that phrase. And without saying anything to her, I said to myself if there's an innate healer, why do we have millions of doctors around the world? So I pledged, I was gonna find out who is the innate healer. And after many years, a dozen or more years of research, that's what led to, the book Cure Your Fatigue.

[00:07:06] Morley Robbins: 'cause it's all about copper. Copper is the innate healer, and that's a very provocative and controversial concept as I'm sure we'll uncover in during the course of our conversations. But there's compelling evidence to that. And one thing led to another and I decided to just leave the healthcare field and I became Dr.

[00:07:29] Morley Robbins: Liz's girl Friday. I was checking people in and out and I said, would you mind if I do research? She says, as long as you check people in and out, and I wholesale change in my life and started doing massive research about minerals and part of what really sparked it. We took it pretty seriously and we were working with a form of magnesium that was causing diarrhea, and I was troubled by that.

[00:08:00] Morley Robbins: And so I vowed to find a company that had a product, a magnesium product that didn't cause diarrhea and bait had it, that the day that I called Jigsaw was the day that Patrick Sullivan Jr. Answered the phone was his turn. And what should have been a 10 minute conversation turned into over an hour conversation.

[00:08:21] Morley Robbins: And that's when the friendship began and the relationship. And that's eventually what led to Magnesium. Man. The the stipulation was you don't have to talk about jigsaw, just talk about magnesium. And so I did. I just talked about magnesium. I. And it was a lot of fun. It was very carefree.

[00:08:40] Morley Robbins: It was very innocent. Back in 20 10, 20 11, 20. 

[00:08:45] Christa Biegler, RD: You weren't 

[00:08:46] Christa Biegler, RD: making so many enemies. Everyone was a fan of magnesium. 

[00:08:49] Morley Robbins: Exactly. 

[00:08:50] Morley Robbins: No and what's really funny about 

[00:08:52] Christa Biegler, RD: it's bipartisan conversation. 

[00:08:54] Morley Robbins: Exactly. 

[00:08:56] Morley Robbins: But I remember having a conversation with a colleague at a conference, and he was basically taking me to task and he said, warley, if it was that simple, it was just magnesium.

[00:09:07] Morley Robbins: We would've figured it out. And in my arrogance and my hubris, I said, we don't understand it the way I do. He was right. I was wrong. And over a period of five years, I realized I wanted to find out why is everyone losing their magnesium? It's a really good thing to know, right? What turns out it's from oxidative stress.

[00:09:27] Morley Robbins: Where's the oxidative stress coming from? If iron is building in the body, it interacts with oxygen in the body, that creates the oxygen of stress. Then I had to figure out why is iron building in the body? Why is oxygen not being managed properly? And that's what got me to copper. And that process of going from magnesium deficiency to, oh, it's copper.

[00:09:48] Morley Robbins: That was a five year period to piece together the puzzle. And as I got to copper and then realized that it's the best kept secret on the planet, it's been suppressed for over a hundred years. And I'm just amazed at what people don't know about copper. Everyone is convinced it's toxic. The meme that runs medicine, by the way, is you're anemic and you're copper toxic.

[00:10:13] Morley Robbins: And if you believe that I've gotta use BMW outside, I'd love to sell you. It's the exact opposite. It's, that's the inversion of the truth. We are drowning in iron in our tissue. It's not showing up in the blood. There's a reason why it's not showing up in the blood. 'cause we don't have enough copper to regulate its release.

[00:10:35] Morley Robbins: And so I have uncovered a lot of nuances to human physiology that's not taught in medical school. And the real tragedy is I don't think doctors know how energy is made. I don't think they know how blood is made. They don't know how bone is made and they don't know how babies are made. And it's really staggering because all four of them require bioavailable copper.

[00:11:06] Morley Robbins: So it, it's just a foundational mechanism. No one is taught. Doesn't matter what faith or persuasion of medicine you're in there's complete ignorance about copper metabolism, the regulation of oxygen, the regulation of iron, and just it's a glaring gap in clinical understanding on the planet.

[00:11:29] Christa Biegler, RD: We gotta go back to a few things. First of all, it's a good thing that someone loved you enough to say, go back to Dr. Liz. And I was thinking, I think you like to make jokes on the side. So I was thinking, behind every successful man is a really incredible woman. That's good thing.

[00:11:45] Christa Biegler, RD: And so I wanna need to wrap a little bit of a bow because that Magnesium Man thing was a lot of an identity. I actually didn't know that your relationship with Jigsaw started then. I just talked to Patrick A. Little bit here and there about how you guys end up in two hour long conversations every once in a while weekly.

[00:12:02] Christa Biegler, RD: And I didn't know that went that far back. But I have to close the loop. People are gonna wanna know about the magnesium that was causing diarrhea. And we've talked about this before. Patrick and I have done magnesium talks, but hey let's just cover what forms of magnesium you switched to at that time.

[00:12:17] Christa Biegler, RD: Maybe you don't care anymore 'cause you've moved on to copper. And I agree. The more we learn, the more we realize we don't know. But let's finish the magnesium form comment and then I've got some more things, 

[00:12:30] Morley Robbins: The form of magnesium. And really what happened was Patrick said I'll do a Pepsi challenge.

[00:12:36] Morley Robbins: I'll take our product and go up against anybody. So we did. But the two forms of magnesium I think are superior are magnesium malate, which is the backbone of the jigsaw product. Great product and magnesium glycinate. Same. I'm going to. Naming the specific product, but the most popular form of magnesium is not what people think.

[00:13:00] Morley Robbins: It's, and the 

[00:13:02] Christa Biegler, RD: citrate people, just not, 

[00:13:03] Morley Robbins: yeah, people don't know that citrate is an endogenous inhibitor of the op plasmin protein. See, most people don't know what sulo plasma is. They, the book talks about three minerals and a protein. The protein is through plasma and it's one of the biggest proteins in the body.

[00:13:23] Morley Robbins: 1,046 amino acids. Put it in perspective. Insulin is 42 and it has eight coppers inside it. Okay? So it's really a tank. There's actually five soldiers in the tank. This has eight soldiers. And the question that no one's asking about copper toxicity. Oh, high copper in the hair, high copper in the blood is.

[00:13:49] Morley Robbins: What chemical was the person exposed to the denature of the serop plasm that caused the tyrosine trap door to open and the copper to leak out like diarrhea? That's the question that no one's asking. There's things like ascorbic acid birth control pills, high fructose corn syrup fourth generation antibiotics and on.

[00:14:11] Morley Robbins: It goes that blow up ullo plasma to cause copper to come out. And maybe that's the problem. Maybe it isn't the copper, maybe it's the drugs that we're being exposed to in our diet, in our medical routines. And people aren't aware of that. That's, to me, that's the greater sin. 

[00:14:29] Christa Biegler, RD: I know, and I know you wanna talk about copper and I should have asked you before we got here, what are you most excited about?

[00:14:35] Christa Biegler, RD: You're obviously most excited about copper, and I wanna have a copper conversation and I wanna come ready to play to the copper conversation. 

[00:14:41] Morley Robbins: Let's go back to where you wanna go. We'll, 

[00:14:43] Christa Biegler, RD: yeah, let's start we'll come back to copper. Let's start with the thing that when people walk into see me, I am educating them about, which is vitamin D and I don't think that vitamin D is evil as much as under misunderstood.

[00:14:59] Christa Biegler, RD: But what I want to, and this is where my relationship with you indirectly started, which is that when we are on high dose vitamin D it's creating other antagonistic things happening in the body. And this is we need to back up to a big picture conversation in order to do this topic justice, to do a good job with it.

[00:15:21] Christa Biegler, RD: And so the reality is that there's over a hundred thousand articles on PubMed related to vitamin D. I need to set the stage here, right? There's over a hundred thousand articles on vitamin D of on PubMed, and it covers everything from bone health to immune function, cardiovascular, mental health, COVID, 19 especially, really popular, right?

[00:15:41] Christa Biegler, RD: What was really popular that we saw in the last five years is people coming in on high dose D and zinc, and I know and zinc creating problems for copper as well. And there's a conversation around it. There's a lot to say about vitamin D. And I guess I think this is how you've landed is that it shows correlation but not causation.

[00:16:02] Christa Biegler, RD: And so I wanna unpack a little bit of where, if we can get to the 1 0 1 of, we could talk about vitamin D. I don't know that we need to talk, whatever you wanna talk about with vitamin D metabolism, but maybe what we need to point out is what is the issue in the world? And I think this is actually an issue that affects multiple, it crosses multiple topics, which is synthetic.

[00:16:28] Christa Biegler, RD: Perhaps. And that might be like this. Step one is where we look at vitamin D and there appears to be issues. And so our solution is synthetic. And I will, I agree with you wholeheartedly. This is how I describe it, is that we're over simpletons sometimes, right? It's like we saw low iron in the blood, so we gave iron, we saw low vitamin D, so we gave D and have I ever seen benefits short term from this?

[00:16:53] Christa Biegler, RD: Yes. And also it's a fat soluble nutrient that's got these other pieces. And so that's what I wanna make sure we start with today because I think when we lose that component that we're missing in general. So let's talk about what is the issue when everyone's dove item D is great because look at all this research.

[00:17:14] Christa Biegler, RD: What's the issue right there? Then how have we misused vitamin D going forward from there? 

[00:17:24] Morley Robbins: So I think I'm been heavily influenced by Mark Twain. When you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to switch sides. So I think people need to really take a step back and say, oh, okay, maybe I should be a little more balanced.

[00:17:39] Morley Robbins: Maybe there's more to the story. Let's just leave it at that. There's more to the story. There's four fat soluble vitamins. A, D, E, and K two are MIA in the diet vitamin A and vitamin E. Nowhere in the diet D and K have been weaponized. And so that's a very different way of thinking about it. But it isn't that I'm against vitamin D.

[00:18:05] Morley Robbins: We absolutely need to have vitamin D We need to get it in our food, especially, if you can't get it in. By going outside in sunshine, which is the purest form. And it's the water soluble form according to Stephanie s because the sunshine makes sure that the molecule gets sulfated and then it becomes water soluble.

[00:18:29] Morley Robbins: And it's not fat soluble. It's a big change in the properties of a nutrient to get from fat to water. But it's about balance and in nature. Vitamin D is very often, almost always paired with vitamin A, especially like in cod liver oil. The cod oil that jigsaw sells is 20 A to 1D. A lot of cod liver oils are 10 to one.

[00:19:02] Morley Robbins: Historically, it's, it was been 10 to one because it's Atlantic cod. What Jigsaw is using is Alaskan Cup. And for some reason the Alaskan species has a much higher concentration of Red Milk. That's great. But our ancestors were graced with a lot of outdoor activity. They didn't stay indoors like we do working on computers or whatever the excuse is for not being outside.

[00:19:30] Morley Robbins: But I think we also have to understand that historically these nutrients weren't always here. And that it turns out that Vitamin A came onto the planet 700 million years before Vitamin D. Well, okay, that's interesting. So what is Vitamin A? Oh, it's a light sensor. We've got light. What are we gonna do with that light?

[00:19:58] Morley Robbins: It. We got light. Come on let's use that light. And then 700 million years later, along comes a light filter. Vitamin D is sunglasses. And , it's always attached to sunlight, wink, wink. But the sun whenever you see the sun in an article about vitamin D, it's wearing sunglasses.

[00:20:24] Morley Robbins: Ding ding. That's the code. And people don't know what that means. And so it was actually western a price who figured this out? He was brilliant dentist at the turn of the century or the last turn

[00:20:38] Morley Robbins: of the century. But he noted that there was a significant rise and fall on vitamin D levels according to what the season was and when there is more sunshine.

[00:20:53] Morley Robbins: There's more red light, and when there's more red light, there is less vitamin D in the person's body. And just the opposite with winter. Winter has less light, it's more blue light but the vitamin D tends to be higher. And so the confusion is what is that storage d really doing what's fluctuating with the sunlight.

[00:21:26] Morley Robbins: And while it has a relationship with immune system, which I'm intimately familiar with, there's a difference in the immune system between suppression and downregulation. So when someone is sleeping, suppression is putting a pillow over their head and cutting off their air supply. That's suppression.

[00:21:52] Morley Robbins: Downregulation is singing a lullaby. Vitamin D suppresses the immune system, which it did during Covid Vitamin A, downregulates it. Again, they're vastly different philosophical and physiological concepts. And my personal opinion is we need both. But we have been corralled, bullied propagandized that vitamin D is the answer to every problem you have.

[00:22:23] Morley Robbins: And that's just not true. And so they've bent over backwards to correlate low vitamin D to every conceivable condition on the planet. And that's not a causal connection. It's a correlational connection. And here's the part that everyone has missed. So there's two forms of vitamin D.

[00:22:47] Morley Robbins: There's storage and active, right? And actually, if you really want to get into the weeds of it and I don't know whether you follow the work of Jim Stevenson Jr. 

[00:22:58] Christa Biegler, RD: No. 

[00:22:58] Morley Robbins: Who's a electrical engineer, who's former wife, almost died of a vitamin D overdose. And so he took it upon himself to learn vitamin D metabolism.

[00:23:11] Morley Robbins: There's no one on the planet that knows Vitamin D better than Jim Stevenson Jr. Including Dr. Hallock up at Boston University. And there are about 20 different metabolites of vitamin D, but all we ever hear about is 25 hydroxy storage. D very rarely do we ever hear about active D 1 25 hydroxy, and certainly not 24, 25 hydroxy.

[00:23:38] Morley Robbins: it just goes on and on. There. There are countless. Derivatives of this metabolite that no one knows about. But the point is the storage d is made in the liver. 

[00:23:53] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. This is what I wanna cover is that to make, this is our understanding of vitamin D via sunlight, and I have some questions about one of the comments you made related to Dr.

[00:24:03] Christa Biegler, RD: Price saying that the vitamin D was lower in the summer, but let's talk about the via the sun. 

[00:24:09] Morley Robbins: I made a mistake. It's just the opposite. It's gonna be higher in the summer and lower in the winter. 'cause it's blocking the light during the summer and it's because you have less light in the winter, there needs to be more release of the light into the body, so the D is gonna go down.

[00:24:24] Morley Robbins: So I got that. 

[00:24:25] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah, that would make sense. I, 

[00:24:27] Christa Biegler, RD: okay. That would make sense. Okay. 

[00:24:28] Morley Robbins: I apologize. 

[00:24:29] Christa Biegler, RD: No, that's okay. I just wanna start with basic vitamin D metabolism because I actually use to. This was something that was really bothering me. I'll just tell you a little bit of a story. When I was working in dialysis, as you may know, nutrition is a big deal in dialysis.

[00:24:47] Christa Biegler, RD: If you eat too much potassium in dialysis, you're gonna have heart attack because your kidneys filter it out. Other people fine, dialysis, kidneys don't work, not okay. So there's a lot of interesting stuff that happens. It's a very highly medical intervention situation. Lots of feelings about that.

[00:25:06] Christa Biegler, RD: But the reason I was interested in vitamin D at that time was because I'd have these patients that were on 50,000 milligrams of Vitamin D two, and I was asking my nephrologist that I worked with, 

[00:25:17] Morley Robbins: what I use milligrams or I use. 

[00:25:21] Christa Biegler, RD: I use, yeah. Yeah. Okay. 50,000 I use once a week of Vitamin D two. But here's the reason this matters.

[00:25:27] Christa Biegler, RD: D is supposed to be made when you have exposure to the sunlight, but it's gotta go through the liver. And then the last step is the kidneys to get made into the version that your body is using. And the last step is the kidneys. If you look up a picture of basic Vitamin D metabolism, you'll see an image.

[00:25:45] Christa Biegler, RD: And so the last step, if you're not gonna convert D two to D three via the kidneys, I was dumbfounded on why I was like Dr. Raymond, why are these people on this? And he said 'cause the doctors at the hospital don't know what they're doing, but then no one takes them off of it. And so they're actually put on multiple forms and types.

[00:26:04] Christa Biegler, RD: I only tell you that story because it's really an anchor in my brain of memory of how vitamin D sort of works. And so before we go past this sunshine component too much, I have some curiosities and then I wanna get into the co-factors and how it interplays with vitamin A and how we're, this conversation may come about vitamin A shortly more so than vitamin D.

[00:26:28] Christa Biegler, RD: And but when we're thinking about this something, an experiment that I haven't gotten to run that I was just curious about, so I'm curious if you have any experience with this is that I've always wanted to play with, 'cause when you start to talk about sunlight, and I live in the northern part of the United States and fortunately I'm coming into more sunlight, but I.

[00:26:48] Christa Biegler, RD: And during this conversation, but there, as you're also, I guess on the upper part of the hemisphere we don't always have a lot of sunlight sometimes. And so the conversation becomes for people, how does it work to use other. Alternatives to sunlight, right?

[00:27:04] Christa Biegler, RD: There's like vitamin D lamps and do they actually work? And you probably don't care at all about this. These are just still questions I ask myself. But I didn't wanna, go past how we're creating vitamin D. And I know that the part of the conversation that we're trying to have is that the issue is that we are then supplementing a bunch of D without really considering the co-factors.

[00:27:25] Christa Biegler, RD: To me, that's like the big part of the conversation. But anyway, any comment on like when there isn't and maybe this goes back to innate wisdom of the body where it's yeah, not everywhere has sun all the time. And here's how the body, and I think you were trying to describe this earlier, but I got a little confused with it.

[00:27:41] Christa Biegler, RD: And so I'm just wondering is, does innate wisdom include meaning that our body is supporting us no matter what, even in these dark months? And then the other part is I. I think part of the conversation is the issue that we're not outside of course, but it's like, what if there's no sun?

[00:27:59] Christa Biegler, RD: Actually 

[00:28:00] Morley Robbins: no. As I understand it, the liver can store six months of vitamin D. And we've been let to believe that suddenly if it, when it goes into winter, you're screwed. No. And what did our ancestors do? They relied on their diet for their sources of nutrients, 

[00:28:17] Christa Biegler, RD: by consuming 

[00:28:18] Christa Biegler, RD: liver.

[00:28:20] Christa Biegler, RD: By consuming liver 

[00:28:22] Morley Robbins: in comparable oil. And consuming grass fed products. People don't understand what the significance of grass and sunshine are as it relates to building nutrients. And we live in a, I remember when I first started my work. I was accosted by people who said, I'm dairy free, sugar free, corn free.

[00:28:43] Morley Robbins: And they would, wheat free. And I was picturing a plate with ice on it. What are you eating? What's your source of nutrients? And so the concept that we have to be at the equator for half the day, stark naked, is just not true. The actual production is stimulated by sunlight in the eye.

[00:29:04] Morley Robbins: It isn't this massive body that has to be exposed to sunlight. And the part that isn't understood is B nine is very important for stimulating the process to make vitamin D or B nine 

[00:29:23] Christa Biegler, RD: BB nine 

[00:29:25] Morley Robbins: oh late. 

[00:29:26] Christa Biegler, RD: Yes. 

[00:29:28] Christa Biegler, RD: I wanted to make 

[00:29:28] Christa Biegler, RD: sure we heard you because it was hard to hear. B nine was essential, 

[00:29:32] Morley Robbins: B nine.

[00:29:33] Morley Robbins: But the flip side is that B nine is involved in the breakdown of vitamin A. The part that everyone's missing is that another reason why we should be in the sunshine is that sunlight, not just synthesizes vitamin D, it stimulates the breakdown of vitamin A into the retinoids, into the retinoic acids.

[00:30:00] Morley Robbins: There's four of 'em. They're very powerful hormones. I would say they're far more powerful than hormone D. And the other thing that it creates is the nuclear receptors, our ars, our or our Xrs, RYRR, zrs. Nobody knows about those, and Y is everyone's thyroid off. Because they don't have enough retinol on their diet to generate the RXR receptor that needs to be married up to the th the thyroxine receptor to stimulate the promoter region in the gene to make T four.

[00:30:39] Morley Robbins: So there's so much misinformation and misunderstanding about why certain metabolites are low. But the thing is, here's the part that only one scientist has ever brought to my attention, and his name is Leslie Clovey. He's an MD PhD. He's a cardiologist and a copper expert. And in my first, actually it wasn't my first, it was actually my second conversation with, I've had many, but I remember the order.

[00:31:11] Morley Robbins: But in the second conversation, I proposed to him that I said, Dr. Vey, I had this theory that all of the B vitamins, our copper dependent. They regulate iron metabolism. He said Marley I can't comment on all the B vitamins. He said, it's a very interesting theory, he said, but what I can tell you for a fact is that Ben nine is copper dependent.

[00:31:38] Morley Robbins: Did you know that Ben nine was copper dependent? Most people don't know. No. And so some no, but 

[00:31:43] Morley Robbins: most, 

[00:31:43] Christa Biegler, RD: but a lot of things are copper dependent, and we're not really talking about copper. So that's okay, right? It's like we don't think about that. We don't think about it like this.

[00:31:53] Christa Biegler, RD: In past winters, my son has gotten dry hands that can crack and bleed. I found that giving him at least 300 to 600 milligrams of high quality fish oil really resolves this in a few weeks. This year I started him on jigsaw's Alaska cud liver oil because it's the best value for high quality US sourced cud liver oil.

[00:32:11] Christa Biegler, RD: Just one teaspoon gives him a thousand milligrams of total omega threes, which just means faster results with nature's natural dose of synergistic Vitamin A and D already found in cod liver oil to support immune health. Jigsaw sources their cod liver oil from Alaska where lying caught fish are flash frozen on the boat.

[00:32:30] Christa Biegler, RD: This keep the fish oil very fresh so it doesn't require more processing and deodorizing like other fish oils, which can disrupt the oils and nutrients. So when you combine jigsaw's incredible cod liver oil with some of their other wonderful electrolyte mineral products, it's a winning combination to keep your skin beautifully hydrated.

[00:32:46] Christa Biegler, RD: Year after year, you can get a discount on all of jigsaw's products, including Alaska Cod Liver oil, electrolyte, Supreme Adrenal Cocktail, and Potassium Cocktail, formerly known as pickleBall@jigsawhealth.com with the code Less Stressed 10, which you can use on each and every order. That's Code Less Stressed 10.

[00:33:07] Morley Robbins: No, but the thing is, you can't make vitamin D and you can't stimulate the breakdown of vitamin A without it.

[00:33:17] Morley Robbins: And it's central to the physiology and the key is in the liver where we're making vitamin D, the enzyme, the 25 hydroxylase enzyme. Is magnesium dependent documented and many of the, there's eight places in vitamin D metabolism that are magnesium dependent. So it's a very important metabolite for vitamin D. And here's the catch, the standard western diet is very low in minerals, as you probably know, most of all low in copper.

[00:34:00] Morley Robbins: And when copper is low in the diet, iron rises in the liver. That was first documented that the University of Wisconsin, 1928 in May, in March of 1928, and at the University of Kentucky in May of 1928. So a low copper diet in an animal causes high iron in the liver, but when the iron is rising in the liver.

[00:34:24] Morley Robbins: It's creating oxidative stress. Axiomatic, it's just how the body works, what burns up. Magnesium oxidative stress. And so this perpetual state of low vitamin D is born from low copper, high iron that's affecting the 25 hydroxylase enzyme in the liver, and then goes on to affect 1 25 hydroxylase in the kidney.

[00:34:54] Morley Robbins: And what's causing the kidney disease? Oh, it's an accumulation of iron in the tubules, well documented. And I think probably the, one of the most important articles I've read about vitamin D, it's by Meg Mangan, M-A-N-G-I-N, 2014 on vitamin D and inflammation. And it took me three weeks to read that article when I first read it.

[00:35:22] Morley Robbins: Because there's a significant proportion of extrarenal active d that's made by macrophages that's not made in the kidney, but it uses the same mechanism. And people don't, 

[00:35:38] Christa Biegler, RD: that does 

[00:35:38] Christa Biegler, RD: not surprise me. 

[00:35:40] Morley Robbins: Yeah, 

[00:35:40] Christa Biegler, RD: the body's pretty cool like that. It will do what it needs to do. 

[00:35:42] Morley Robbins: Absolutely. But here's the part that's I think really important about that is that everyone focuses on storage.

[00:35:50] Morley Robbins: D very few, if ever, does a practitioner test for active D I'm originally from Baltimore. My nickname is Bley, and I worship at the altar of Johns Hopkins. There's some pretty smart people there. Mohammad Amer in 2013. I know long time before Covid, but he did an all cause mortality study about storage D and what he found was there's no clinical benefit to having storage D above 21.

[00:36:28] Morley Robbins: That's heretical in the Michael Holic fraternity. Oh, you, it's gotta be somewhere between 70 and a hundred. And what Dr. Amer said was, no there's no benefit. And

[00:36:43] Morley Robbins: there's also a marker for active D and it really shouldn't go above 45. So the ratio of active to storage d should be about two to one. Now, a fun biomarker for you to play with in your practice is to start measuring. Active D along with your storage d 

[00:37:06] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I wanna highlight what those are called if you don't mind for everybody.

[00:37:10] Christa Biegler, RD: Sure. It's a little confusing and I appreciate you calling it storage versus active. 'cause I think it's easier and I wish that we called it that all the time because it's easier because these things will run together. Storage form being 25 hydroxy D act. Yes. Sometime you really don't call it this calcitriol, but, and then active form being 1 25 hydroxy, possibly called Calcitriol.

[00:37:36] Christa Biegler, RD: So basically we're always measuring, just to, to reiterate, we're always measuring storage 25 hydroxy, but we should. Also measure active, which is 1 25. So it's one comma 25 hydroxy. What's confusing maybe when you're reading it, usually I think it, I don't remember if it usually says hydroxy, but it will usually have a parentheses between behind the 25 as OH, which means hydroxy in this scenario.

[00:38:04] Christa Biegler, RD: So it's confusing the way you read it, and that's what makes I think in general that's, we get confused with nutrients because there's nuance. Lots of nuance. 

[00:38:15] Morley Robbins: Yeah. It's a sin to call them vitamins. They are hormones seco steroid hormones, and as I understand it, the hormone D is the only hormone where you don't measure both active and storage level, all the other hormones.

[00:38:30] Morley Robbins: You always, and the argument is, oh, it's so volatile. We can't keep track. It's like. All the active hormones are volatile. What are you talking about? Why are you parsing this with vitamin D? And the part that's really important for people to know is if they're active to storage, is rising above the two to one ratio.

[00:38:50] Morley Robbins: And this is all written up in the Meg Mangans article. Wonderful article. The active D is being converted to an antimicrobial peptide. 

[00:39:05] Christa Biegler, RD: Interesting. Why? 

[00:39:07] Morley Robbins: Why is it because iron is building in the tissue and the pathogens are drawn to that iron? And again, this is particularly true of the extra renal active d being produced by the macrophages.

[00:39:20] Morley Robbins: 'cause what are the, they're the pacmen trying to clean up the debris, trying to clean out the tissue. And so this is a real, really important component that people don't know about. And so I think that gap in our understanding about active versus storage is significant. I think not knowing that there's an extrarenal source of active that's significant.

[00:39:46] Morley Robbins: It was Tom Ferris who is a professor of medicine at Yale Medical School, published an article in 1962. I don't know, I think Yale's a pretty good school. He probably knows what he's talking about. But he talked about vitamin D supplementation, causing. Renal potassium wasting. And what I noted very early on in, in the work that I did with hair tissue mineral analysis, was that people who are into vitamin D at very low potassiums on hair test strikingly low.

[00:40:23] Morley Robbins: And I don't know whether, you know the nuance of a fast versus a slow oxidizer, but a fast oxidizer needs sodium and potassium to run their system. And when they take vitamin D, that potassium crashes, which brings down the sodium, and then you've got a, you've got a real problem in your hand because metabolically they can't support that low sodium and potassium.

[00:40:47] Morley Robbins: And so people don't know about that nuance. They don't know about Tom Ferriss's research from 1962. That's ancient history, right? We're not supposed to know about that. So old and yet. Wisdom doesn't go away. 

[00:41:04] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. Old research is totally fine. When we're talking about nutrient physiology, that doesn't change well, our understanding of it changes, but when we're trying to unpack the actual physiology, that should be a forever thing. 'cause it was always there. 

[00:41:19] Morley Robbins: And the other real big watershed event for me was my, my strategy as I've done this work, done this research, if I find an article that really speaks to me and really seems to have integrity, I'll track down the author's phone number and call 'em to thank them.

[00:41:36] Morley Robbins: And so this was back in 2010. I'm still living in Chicago where there's no sunshine, but I'm not worried about it. And I came across this article about cholesterol written by lipid lipidologist Fred Kuro. Who was at the University of Illinois in downstate Illinois at Champaign Urbana. I called him up and I told him what I, I really enjoyed about the article.

[00:42:01] Morley Robbins: He said would you like to come down and have lunch with me? I said, sure, I'd love that. I didn't know it at the time. He was 98 years old and he was still working 20 hours a week at his lab. This guy was an ever ready bunny and got to his home and we had grass fed hamburgers, homegrown tomatoes.

[00:42:23] Morley Robbins: He loved chocolate milk and had a wonderful meal together. And then he started to share with me his research that he did in the 1970s for a decade using pigs, which are identical to humans. We know some people who are pigs, right? 

[00:42:43] Christa Biegler, RD: I was waiting for this. Pigs identical to humans. Okay. 

[00:42:48] Morley Robbins: But they respond exactly the same to vitamin D supplementation that humans do.

[00:42:53] Morley Robbins: And at the end of his research, he was invited to an international symposium on vitamin D supplementation. He's one of the keynote speakers. There's no LL Laureates at this meeting and mean you don't, you probably don't know the name Fred Kuron, but he's a really big deal in the world of lipid research.

[00:43:13] Morley Robbins: And he gets up and he says, ladies and gentlemen, you did not supplement with vitamin D. Well, they just, they went crazy. And I, I said, Dr. Kuro what happened as a result of that talk? Now you got a picture? He was six two, I'm six feet. He was a big guy. And he gets his glint in his eye. And again, he's 98 years old, but he's got so much energy, so I was just so impressed.

[00:43:40] Morley Robbins: He leans in, he says, Morley, I'm the only one who's still standing. All the others are dead. And then he proceeds to take we go to his lab and he proceeds to gimme a stack of research to back up what he was saying. And so I took it upon myself to I guess augment my understanding of vitamin D.

[00:44:03] Morley Robbins: And it's just, it's a very complicated subject. It's a very popular subject. There's a there's a webinar that we have on the root cause protocol. I think it's a 90 minute webinar that people can download and they got, it's behind a paywall. Sorry. A lot of good information there. It's full of research that should make people question, should I be doing this in isolation of other nutrients?

[00:44:30] Morley Robbins: For sure. And especially vitamin A and the 

[00:44:33] Christa Biegler, RD: and K two. 

[00:44:35] Morley Robbins: The thing with K two is, that's tricky as well because I have a client in Germany who went full bore into K two and he messed up his copper as a result of it. 

[00:44:47] Christa Biegler, RD: I could understand that. 

[00:44:48] Christa Biegler, RD: I don't think you should just, your body should technically make K two.

[00:44:52] Christa Biegler, RD: It's 

[00:44:52] Morley Robbins: exactly 

[00:44:52] Christa Biegler, RD: K two is made from good bacteria and K one. Exactly. Not everyone has good bacteria and that can compromise what's happening with calcium. And I have seen massive improvements in calcium from just doing. A little bit of K two for a little while and then not, and at the end of the day, I think a lot of things are Goldilocks, right?

[00:45:11] Morley Robbins: Yes, that's right. 

[00:45:12] Christa Biegler, RD: That's the bottom line. It's like you can't just do one thing forever. You can do food-based nutrients forever. That's okay. You can do food-based supplements. I think. I think you can do cud liver. I don't think you should just be on supplement. This is, I'm getting a little philosophical, but aren't we all, just in general, it's I would rather not be on supplements, and I would like to be able to use them if I need them, if I want them or need them for something, if that's what I want. But anyway, sorry, go ahead. 

[00:45:37] Morley Robbins: No. I think I, we're very closely in, in alignment. The thing is, the food system is very different today than it was with Dr. Price. And people, I don't think people are fully aware of the devastation to the nutrients in food.

[00:45:55] Morley Robbins: And we're basically, we are Swiss cheese, eating Swiss cheese. 

[00:46:01] Christa Biegler, RD: I think that makes sense though. I think we know, but, and I do think that there's a rise. I was. Really, it's like we probably came into some of the, some of that information around the same time. It's actually funny.

[00:46:15] Christa Biegler, RD: I was introduced to Western a Prices work around 2009, 2010. And the people I was introduced to it by, I chose not to use all of their methodology, but it was whole food nutrition. I liked all of that. 

[00:46:27] Morley Robbins: Yeah. 

[00:46:27] Christa Biegler, RD: There was aspects of it that weren't a good fit for me.

[00:46:30] Christa Biegler, RD: It was in the muscle testing realm for more specificity. But I've been like, I've been following along and I appreciate this. We're now 15 years later and I might be looking at the world with rose colored glasses. It might just be my clientele. You're gonna have some 50 50, you're gonna have people who are like completely dark to everything.

[00:46:48] Christa Biegler, RD: And then you've got people who are over here trying to bring back homesteading, especially after the last five years. Or like nose to tail. I do feel like nose to tail is much more popular and I do feel like we are hopefully getting away from. I do think we are slowly getting away from over restriction.

[00:47:03] Christa Biegler, RD: 'cause even we are, Swiss cheese on Swiss cheese is relevant for people on standard American diet and also people who follow health conscious diets that may have some situations where they're just over here supplementing vitamin D and zinc and creating other Swiss cheese situations. I'll call it 

[00:47:18] Christa Biegler, RD: that.

[00:47:19] Morley Robbins: Yeah. And people don't realize that the nutrient tables that are so wedded to haven't been updated for decades. 

[00:47:26] Christa Biegler, RD: Oh. And I don't think we're gonna see that actually. I just don't think I don't know when this was, the USDA just quit even supporting the nutrient database in general, which I thought was like, oh, I thought you guys were supposed to be like the gold standard 

[00:47:42] Christa Biegler, RD: and 

[00:47:42] Christa Biegler, RD: you just quit.

[00:47:42] Christa Biegler, RD: You just just, you just threw in the towel. It's where are we getting this information? And that is a legitimate concern because a lot of this stuff you talk about is fairly nuanced. And if I just go back to copper for a moment. People would be like, oh, he keeps talking about copper.

[00:47:56] Christa Biegler, RD: Where do you get it? Okay. Wild animals. When I see rabbit on the menu, I'm ordering it. Rabbit, venison, pork chlorophyll. We do a lot of chlorophyll in practice. 'cause we're always trying to be food based. Maybe bepal meats. Yeah. Organ meats. Organ meats are foundational for us.

[00:48:14] Christa Biegler, RD: But when I say those words, shrimp, I guess as well, when I say those things, first of all I can understand where copper, I think there's lots of reasons copper gets low. So to be continued on that conversation. But the other piece that worries me, just like you, is like the accuracy of this information on where we get sources of stuff.\

[00:48:32] Morley Robbins: Absolutely. It's changed. It's changed since. 

[00:48:36] Christa Biegler, RD: And on this note though, I want you to, 'cause we danced around it a couple times now and you brought up grass fed nutrients and the but you never fully wrapped that with a bow on the specifics of some of the nutrients. And I actually want you to highlight that 'cause I think the listener cares.

[00:48:52] Morley Robbins: Okay. In terms of the sources sourcing for the, 

[00:48:55] Christa Biegler, RD: You said people don't understand why the nutrients in grass fed, this is not exactly what you said were important. And then we got off talking about DNAA little bit more. But I want you to come back to grass fed nutrition and the differences specifically.

[00:49:15] Christa Biegler, RD: And on this note,

[00:49:17] Christa Biegler, RD: this was a topic that I looked at literature on probably 15 years ago and struggled to find. Good literature on at that time. I probably didn't. I think your life is a little more devoted to digging for that. So I'm just curious what you share. 'cause what my impression was is like it's a little higher in vitamin A, but actually now 15 years later, 10 to 15 years later, it's that's probably the most important part.

[00:49:42] Morley Robbins: No, I have a slide that I use in my training. It's a picture of a cow eating grass outside, the following the natural order of things. But overlaid is on it is the conversion of the grass into milk and the chemical reactions that are involved. And that's what the cow does.

[00:50:01] Morley Robbins: That's what the cow brings to the party is it's a chemistry lab. And it can take the betacarotene and the vitamin C that's found naturally in grass. Thank you very much, mother Nature. And it can use those nutrients to create. Unprocessed gold. The products that can be produced from raw milk are amazing and many, but it's been demonized in the modern era.

[00:50:29] Morley Robbins: 'cause so many people are lactose intolerant, not knowing that the lactase enzyme is copper dependent. So that begins to bring it full circle. But the thing is the nutrients that come up through the root system of the grass and get into the grass are vital to our microbiome as well as the animal's microbiome.

[00:50:51] Morley Robbins: And we've become too detached from the source. And that's what the whole west a price movement is all about. Yeah. And I think if. Dr. Price had lived a little longer. He probably would've discovered minerals. I think it would be fascinating to see what he would have to say about minerals.

[00:51:10] Morley Robbins: And the key is that he was a big proponent of vitamin A, as you probably know, and really ascribed a lot of benefit to that nutrient. It's funny, back in that day, he was doing most of his work in the twenties and thirties that we know about. But even prior to that, when they were studying vitamin A, like I'm thinking of Hopkins and people that win the Nobel Prizes they were studying retinol Dr.

[00:51:41] Morley Robbins: Block during the First World War and curing blindness and little boys because they, they were able to eat butter and cream. And suddenly they got their sight, their vision back. But, what were they doing to the vitamin D fractions in those studies they're throwing away back in the 1910s to 1930s, they didn't have any awareness of vitamin D as it's studied today.

[00:52:07] Morley Robbins: And we just have to be really careful about could there be an overemphasis here that maybe we've lost sight of the balance that we, that these metabolites need to be together. Magnesium and calcium really need to work together. Sodium, potassium need to work together. Iron and copper need to work together, not copper and zinc, iron and copper.

[00:52:31] Morley Robbins: Very different A and D and e and KI mean, these are known patterns of appearing that mother nature must have had a reason for it. And so I think we've, the what becomes in favor evolves. As time moves forward and retinol was the rage back in the first World war vitamin D is now the rage during the, the Covid era.

[00:52:59] Morley Robbins: And I think we have to take a more balanced view to say what are the properties of both that we need in order to have proper human physiology and what's the best sourcing? I think the real issue, and I think you're in alignment here, is coming from a bottle may not be the best source. 

[00:53:17] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. 

[00:53:18] Morley Robbins: And I think that's where people have been seduced into thinking, oh, I can get it from a bottle, I'll be fine.

[00:53:23] Morley Robbins: When I think it's far better to get it from food wherever possible. 

[00:53:27] Christa Biegler, RD: Wherever possible. I want to touch on something about West Price and grass of protein and then I wanna come back to more about vitamin A. 'cause I'm thinking of questions I have about vitamin A that are fun. Yeah. I wanna mention that if you're listening to this, I don't know that we've done much conver I think people, if they are familiar with West Anti Price, it's because they may have learned some things here or there.

[00:53:50] Christa Biegler, RD: I wanna just say he was a dentist and I probably won't do this justice and maybe you wanna comment as well, but I would say that he was a dentist who saw a lot of, I actually, I love the comfort. I love the parallel to me between dentistry and nutrition, I've always felt like the mouth is literally such a gateway to what's going on inside the body.

[00:54:11] Christa Biegler, RD: And so I'm not sure if this is what he was seeing, but I know that some of his kind of people that affiliated with him. Talked about like issues with tooth stuff or structure or really I think of the guy who wrote Pottinger Cats basically was, it was like he, he saw an ancient tribe in a different on a different continent that had no exposure to standard American ways.

[00:54:34] Christa Biegler, RD: And they had these perfect teeth and the more you introduced some of the stuff in the deficiencies. We had the teeth continued to, get more and more crooked. And so anyway, west, any prices, I guess it was mostly what we would call it. What was the, what was it called?

[00:54:48] Christa Biegler, RD: Traditional wisdoms or traditional? It was just nose to tail. To me it's like whole food and I'm not doing it full justice. I'm ancient traditions. There's maybe the complimentary cookbook that went along with all of this, I would say like whole corner of nutrition. He was massively criticized.

[00:55:06] Christa Biegler, RD: I will say that as well. 'cause I think it's just a good to acknowledge that he was massively criticized. I remember being in college and coming across some of that in my schooling accidentally. He was massively criticized because of his vigor for raw milk and some of that. And of course the concern with raw milk is related to, food safety, right?

[00:55:28] Christa Biegler, RD: And so whatever. Just sharing, if you look up west a price. The internet may tell you he was crazy, but really he was just a dentist that saw the health degrading in, in people and was really into nose to tail. And I think that a lot of people have, I find that there's a lot of western, a price tradition in a lot of, I was on this podcast called Homegrown Nutrition and it's, I always call it like the sourdough moms.

[00:55:52] Christa Biegler, RD: And it's like a lot of those things feed, there's threats that run through is my point. 

[00:55:58] Morley Robbins: Do you know the backstory about why he did his research? 

[00:56:01] Christa Biegler, RD: No, I don't remember that at all. 

[00:56:03] Morley Robbins: No. So he's classically trained dentist. He's originally from Canada, ends up in Cleveland, Ohio, and he gives his 12-year-old son a root canal, which, that was the standard back then.

[00:56:17] Morley Robbins: And his son got an infection and struggled with an infection for four years before he died. And Weston a price and his wife Florence were so devastated by that he wanted to go out and find perfect teeth. He never wanted to deal with that kind of a loss ever again. And so they traveled the globe for a decade in the summers, looking for indigenous tribes that had perfect teeth.

[00:56:52] Morley Robbins: 'cause what he knew was that when we're a fetus, we have 32 buds that split and become 64 buds. And now 32 become our teeth. What do the other 32 become? 

[00:57:10] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm not sure 

[00:57:12] Morley Robbins: The spine and what Dr. Price knew was that perfect teeth meant perfect, spine, meant perfect health. You're absolutely right. The oral cavity is a gateway to health.

[00:57:24] Morley Robbins: And so I've become involved with the I-A-O-M-T the biological dentist. I've done presentations there. They want me to do the root cause training for their members. And the thing is, Dr. Price and his wife identified 14 tribes that had perfect teeth and his going in proposition was, anyone who has perfect teeth is gonna be a vegetarian and they're gonna have a low fat diet.

[00:57:53] Morley Robbins: That was his going in proposition. He was wrong on both counts because all of these 14 tribes had animal protein from whale blubber in Alaska, down to ants in the Messiah, tribesmen in Africa, and upwards of 65% of their calories were from fat. And that's what really shifted his whole paradigm was to realize how important that, and especially Vitamin A is.

[00:58:25] Morley Robbins: And he also did two volumes of research on the dangers of root canals. And then that all of that knowledge was put into a trunk and it was shipped to Hal Huggins. I don't know if you've ever heard that name. Hal Huggins is another, I guess we would call him a biological dentist, but he never met Dr.

[00:58:51] Morley Robbins: Price. But Dr. Price made specific instructions to identify , a prominent dentist who is carrying out the awareness of how dangerous root canals were. And Dr. Huggins gets this chest of information. And that's the mainstay of why there's such controversy around root canals is because of the research that Dr.

[00:59:14] Morley Robbins: Price did back in the twenties. 

[00:59:16] Christa Biegler, RD: So he's a hundred 

[00:59:18] Christa Biegler, RD: years ago. 

[00:59:19] Christa Biegler, RD: Can you imagine 

[00:59:20] Christa Biegler, RD: doing that? I always think then you did a better job telling his story than I did. I just think that's fascinating that he was traveling the world at that time. I would think about, I think about how that would be somewhat challenging now and to imagine doing it a hundred, oh gosh, years ago is next level crazy.

[00:59:38] Morley Robbins: No, it's but he was driven to get truth and there is a lot of controversy and he certainly is being branded a crazy man, but the best those 

[00:59:49] Christa Biegler, RD: legacy's really 

[00:59:50] Christa Biegler, RD: living on a hundred years later though. 

[00:59:52] Morley Robbins: Oh, it absolutely is. And I think one of the best books I've ever read, hands down, probably the best book I've ever read was by, ron Schmid, S-C-H-M-I-D. He's a naturopath the untold story of milk, and it's a wonderfully written, beautifully footnoted chronicle of what happened to milk around the world. And it's become demonized as you certainly know. But the part that people don't know is that milk was really important for the spleen.

[01:00:25] Morley Robbins: It nourishes the white pulp of the spleen. 

[01:00:29] Christa Biegler, RD: One of the most undervalued organs. 

[01:00:32] Morley Robbins: Absolutely. Yeah. And it's the hidden organ. But the thing is spleen is really important and as and so you take milk out of the diet. The spleen starts to wobble.

[01:00:45] Morley Robbins: And it's a very interesting story about how no one knows anything about the spleen, but it's critical to our immune system, especially autoimmunity and what's building up in the spleen iron, the red pulp of the spleen is where the bulk of the turnover of dying red blood cells is taking place.

[01:01:07] Morley Robbins: So it's that, that we could spend a whole hour just talking about that. But the thing is what I've really tried to do in this work with the root cause protocol I know I'm branded a firebrand about iron and vitamin D. But it's because I didn't, I was trying to be very controversial.

[01:01:27] Morley Robbins: I was trying to wake people up, but we need iron, we need vitamin DI, I'm not stupid, it's just in moderation. People don't understand what that means. And so everyone's looking for the next shiny object, what's new, and then they go after it with a passion as you've noted. And I think what's really important is balance and perspective and a willingness to modulate the narrative.

[01:01:55] Morley Robbins: We've gotta calm down and say, what did our ancestors do? How did they eat? 

[01:02:00] Christa Biegler, RD: I think that's the best news. I think that's the best news is that we can and will get into some kind of hard to understand parts of information. But when we go back to how we were made and innate wisdom, a lot of the answers solved themselves.

[01:02:17] Christa Biegler, RD: 'cause nature was already made perfectly. It's just we screwed it up a little bit along the way quite a bit actually. 

[01:02:23] Morley Robbins: If you wanna have fun, get a copy of Fanny Farmer's Cookbook from 200 years ago. You can get 'em in the library. You can get 'em. Sometimes you can get 'em online, but look at what was being eaten 200 years ago.

[01:02:39] Morley Robbins: You wouldn't recognize half the food, but it was all butter, heavy cream sausages. It's just the nutrient density of the food was completely different. 

[01:02:49] Christa Biegler, RD: Something I have been wanting to do that I keep forgetting, but you brought up, after this one timeframe, how they were so fascinating with Vitamin A.

[01:02:58] Christa Biegler, RD: I've always been wanting to just call up old ladies and I got a lot of 'em I could call up, but, sometimes I would have clients say, oh, my grandmother used to always give us cod liver oil all winter. Which I would just love to know the origins of that. Where I live is very much Germans that moved to Russia or Ukraine and then moved to the Dakotas.

[01:03:18] Christa Biegler, RD: And that's a whole story. It's like sometimes knowing I know that's part of the history as well. And I think obviously where people are coming from makes a difference. But it's just something I've been curious about is oh yes, what, did your grandmother give you cod liver oil?

[01:03:30] Christa Biegler, RD: And I wonder, where they got that concept? To be honest. 

[01:03:35] Morley Robbins: No, I know. One of the, one of the most fun conversations I had with a client when we were in Chicago, this woman showed probably in her early forties, had beautiful hair. Just gorgeous, thick, luscious hair. And I said, how'd you do that?

[01:03:50] Morley Robbins: What are you doing? 

[01:03:51] Christa Biegler, RD: I know you're really interested. I'm just joking. 'cause Morley's kind of like has half of a head of her. 

[01:03:55] Morley Robbins: Exactly. Exactly. Where's my hair? But she she turned eight shades of red and she said you promise she'll never tell anyone. I said, oh, of course, we need to tell.

[01:04:05] Morley Robbins: And she's Polish and her grandmother, and she would go over to Poland to visit her grandmother. She taught her how to wash her hair with pig lard, 

[01:04:15] Morley Robbins: pig lard. 

[01:04:16] Christa Biegler, RD: Oh, interesting. I feel like I could 

[01:04:19] Christa Biegler, RD: try this. 

[01:04:19] Morley Robbins: How do you make soap with lard? Yeah. And I said, that's it.

[01:04:23] Morley Robbins: She said, it was really like. There's a wow factor, but the nutrients in that pig large. Yeah. That fat, guess what? It hasn't Vitamin D 

[01:04:32] Christa Biegler, RD: No, 

[01:04:33] Christa Biegler, RD: probably vitamin A. I was thinking that's 

[01:04:34] Christa Biegler, RD: what 

[01:04:35] Morley Robbins: no, but also has vitamin D. 

[01:04:36] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. 

[01:04:37] Morley Robbins: And again it isn't that D is bad, it's been overplayed.

[01:04:42] Morley Robbins: It's out of balance. 

[01:04:43] Christa Biegler, RD: It's 

[01:04:43] Christa Biegler, RD: like part of Yeah. I think, and I wanna summarize that a little bit here in a second, but I wanna mention something else just in tandem with your comment about your favorite book the Untold Story of Milk. And maybe this would be nice for you to know.

[01:04:54] Christa Biegler, RD: Probably one of the reasons I've arrived, and I think this is just useful in general to share, I, in 2010 was introduced to the work of West A Price. Because of that muscle testing community, I ultimately was not in love with the muscle testing community. And I'm not saying I totally have a disdain for that.

[01:05:12] Christa Biegler, RD: It was how it was being done. It felt endless. Yeah, like that there wasn't an exit strategy and it was, didn't, I like to understand physiology a little bit and that wasn't being included. And then I ended up in food sensitivity world around 2015 and so I was really helping people restrict their diets because I'm a dietician.

[01:05:31] Christa Biegler, RD: I did all kinds of nuance, different food sensitivities until I finally got to a point where I was like, this sucks. And also that with nutrient, it was like fun. For a while. And then what about the long game? For me, I'm always like I'm a little bit of a, also a crazy person that's this doesn't seem like the best choice.

[01:05:51] Christa Biegler, RD: And so really my work now is revolves around how to help people overcome these sensitivities. And I bring this up because I forgot for us to define root cause protocol. And I wanted to share a definition how I think of it. And maybe you offer a very different definition and it's, and I think this is really cool, big picture.

[01:06:12] Christa Biegler, RD: We've got a couple schools of thought in. Maybe our corner of the world, right? Health where it's like, you can be in germ theory or terrain theory or strengthening the host and the root cause protocol is really a whole food synergistic kind of a step by step piece. And there's really two halves, but it's really, it's stop doing things that are depleting nutrients and put like high quality nutrients back.

[01:06:35] Christa Biegler, RD: Mostly yeah, just food, super, food based and synergistic. And the goal is to strengthen the host, which for all of us should all be the thing. And I will say it's a, probably the challenge that we need to consider is that. It's a bit lifelong. And I don't mean that in a negative way necessarily, but it's there's not necess.

[01:06:57] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. It's not really a, it's not, you may see some changes initially and you can for sure. Like when we start people on organ things, I have specific normal timeframes on which people feel a little bit better. But to get everything to shift, it's it's a step, it's a process.

[01:07:13] Christa Biegler, RD: And it does take time. It does take time. And actually I wanna hear about how your health has shifted as you've gone through all of these layers and honestly identities. First magnesium, then copper. How has it might be hard to summarize. We are summarizing 15 years of, I guess it's about 15 years of stuff.

[01:07:33] Morley Robbins: Yeah. I have more energy now than I have when I was in my fifties. I used to, when I was 16, I got glasses. When I turned 40, I had to get bifocals, and then as I got into my fifties, I needed cheaters on top of the bifocals so I could, read the stuff on the phone, right? And then I started getting headaches.

[01:07:56] Morley Robbins: I'm like, what? What? And Dr. Liz again she said, you're overcorrecting your eyes. I said, no I gotta be able to read what's on the internet, blah, blah. She said, you're overcorrecting. She says, take off your glasses. I said I won't be able to see. She says, take off your glasses. I can read 2.5 without my glasses.

[01:08:19] Morley Robbins: So the protocol strengthened my eyes. So I don't need glasses anymore. I haven't used glasses for about seven or eight years, and that's very unusual for older people to, to be able to just put 'em down and not use 'em again. I come from a long line of heart attacks. My heart is doing just fine.

[01:08:36] Morley Robbins: Thank you very much. I don't really have any symptoms other than this goofy hair that seems to be I call it natural electrolysis. For whatever reason, just it didn't stick. But but again, it's just, it, I don't know it the part that I think is most disruptive about the protocol is it's a one size fits all.

[01:08:58] Morley Robbins: And people find that, especially practitioners find that wildly offensive, but we're all the same inside. 

[01:09:05] Christa Biegler, RD: I really don't find it offensive. Because I told you earlier, you asked me before we hit record, where did you get your training? And you, I guess you weren't looking for this, but I was like, oh, I learned most of what I know from clients and from mentorship.

[01:09:19] Christa Biegler, RD: She was getting mentorship at the time I wanted, and I just liked pattern recognition. And so recently I redid a lot of what I was doing to not require testing. I'll do testing if people want to, but I was like, I was really trying to answer better que, I think you do this too. I was just trying to answer better questions.

[01:09:39] Christa Biegler, RD: I was like, how can we help people faster and easier without getting stuck on something? I was like I can just get rid of this really expensive test that I don't really need anymore. If I see these patterns, I know that you've got this. This system wants love. So we use, I would say we really embrace root cause protocol.

[01:09:57] Christa Biegler, RD: I don't necessarily teach it quite like that, but it's an opportunity. It's still an opportunity. We always have lots of opportunities of lots of things. I'm always trying to implement easier for people, right? But the most of the principles, much of that, those principles are generally there, right? And it's part of that whole strengthening the host.

[01:10:15] Christa Biegler, RD: That's a huge part of what we want for everyone long term. But it does take time. It takes, no, 

[01:10:22] Morley Robbins: I tell people it's gonna take you 12, 18, 18 months to really turn the battleship around. And I said it may happen faster, but this idea that we can get well yesterday, gotta stop thinking like that, the body doesn't respond to that kind of gyration and I the goal here is that, as I noted earlier, it's a lifestyle program.

[01:10:42] Morley Robbins: It's not a diet. Yeah, you're gonna be taking these nutrients the rest of your life as your ancestors did in their natural daily diet. But we don't have the luxury of having the food that has these nutrients in them. 

[01:10:55] Christa Biegler, RD: And I do think the other really positive thing for us, like when people walk in the door, I always say the first step is prioritizing.

[01:11:02] Christa Biegler, RD: I wanna know, are you, are these some of your symptoms or are these some of your symptoms? Because if you're in a hypersensitive state, I'm gonna go in and nourish you first because if you don't have nutrients, like nothing's gonna work. Nothing's nothing. I can't really do anything if your immune system is having to freak out because you have nothing in your body, right?

[01:11:19] Christa Biegler, RD: So that's always gonna be where we start too. So like I said at the beginning, we are aligned. It's just a matter of helping people. When people come in and they're on vitamin D, by itself, it's or zinc by itself. It's this is really lazy actually. Let's improve upon this. And so I wanna highlight, you can interrupt me if you want.

[01:11:34] Christa Biegler, RD: I wanted to just highlight. Some of the concepts of what we talked about and maybe that big picture again, which is that vitamin D is essential. So we're not arguing with the potentially hundreds of thousands of papers about the importance of vitamin D. I always say that if we did, if we looked at all the papers with all the nutrients, you would find, and you've done some of this, right?

[01:11:56] Christa Biegler, RD: It's if you research any nutrient, you'll be like, this is like the best thing since forever, 

[01:12:00] Christa Biegler, RD: right? 

[01:12:00] Christa Biegler, RD: That's how nutrients are. They're all so damn essential. The issue is that we can over supplement and not realize the downstream effects that we are ignoring, namely vitamin A retinol, which I might have in a couple more questions about retinol.

[01:12:16] Christa Biegler, RD: I just feel like there's probably a lot to talk about with that. And then does magnesium gets degraded, I guess with vitamin D because magnesium's required in eight places for a vitamin D BOTAs. And so if you're just taking a bunch of vitamin D and you don't have the magnesium, then you would further deplete it.

[01:12:32] Christa Biegler, RD: Is that right? 

[01:12:33] Christa Biegler, RD: Okay. 

[01:12:33] Christa Biegler, RD: And other, copper as well, right? Copper is compromised by vitamin D. 

[01:12:39] Morley Robbins: It, it is, it's a very nuanced 

[01:12:41] Christa Biegler, RD: but conversation, yeah. To be 

[01:12:43] Christa Biegler, RD: continued, right? 

[01:12:44] Morley Robbins: Here's, just to make sure people understand this, what makes copper bioavailable are critical enzymes that are activated by retinol.

[01:12:56] Morley Robbins: And when people are focusing all their attention on D the uptake mechanism in our gut is binary can take A or D. They can't take both. When you're. Drowning the body with D you're not gonna get the requisite amount of retinol that's needed to fire up the engines of copper enzymes. That's the connection.

[01:13:18] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. So as you heard him talk a little bit about copper and then we talked about, I talked about food sources of copper, and then we talked about vitamin A and we talked about namely cod liver oil being the main food source of vitamin A. Grass fed foods have more vitamin A than non grass fed foods.

[01:13:37] Christa Biegler, RD: When we're talking about large amounts of vitamin A though, is there any other sources that we did not take into consideration? 

[01:13:47] Morley Robbins: The classic are the grass fed beef liver, the yard eggs grass fed butter, grass fed heavy cream, and then Cobo oil. Those are the big five.

[01:13:57] Christa Biegler, RD: Cool. Cool. And I wanna ask you this and I may, it may just open us up and I don't know if you have a second, but I just can't help it because this this last week I, with Easter and I had less sleep and I had all the ripe things that could allow me to pick up something I picked up. I started to have a cold on Sunday morning, and I like to throw lots of things at immunoglobulins, et cetera.

[01:14:23] Christa Biegler, RD: And I like to work with what I have on hand, which I had part of a bottle of vitamin A retinol left, and I took a very large dose of vitamin A retinol. And I wanna hear about if you ever use supplemental vitamin A or if you only use food-based vitamin A, 

[01:14:41] Morley Robbins: prefer the food-based. I don't think we really know how the synthetic form is made.

[01:14:47] Morley Robbins: And I always worry about human hands touching. 

[01:14:52] Christa Biegler, RD: I think that's reasonable. 

[01:14:53] Morley Robbins: Yeah, 

[01:14:54] Christa Biegler, RD: I think that's reasonable. I do think it's, they 

[01:14:56] Morley Robbins: have the right chemistry, but I'm sure he has the right biology. 

[01:15:00] Christa Biegler, RD: And on that note, I think also something to consider when we're talking about vitamin A is retinol is used, a synthetic retinol is used a lot in the skincare industry.

[01:15:11] Morley Robbins: That's right. 

[01:15:12] Christa Biegler, RD: And you absorb that and it's contraindicated for pregnancy because it's known as a teragen, so it's known to create birth defects. And so I think it's important to bring that up. And that's synthetic retinol form vitamin A. So we would just wanna think about that with supplementation in general.

[01:15:34] Christa Biegler, RD: I think in, and also something we can just be aligned on in general as well is like synthetic nutrients are always concerning. Synthetic 

[01:15:42] Morley Robbins: absolutely 

[01:15:42] Christa Biegler, RD: are always concerning because we're not getting that whole construct. And there will always be arguments about that, but, 

[01:15:50] Morley Robbins: Yeah. But let's balance out the retinol in pregnancy that breastfeeding is a very viable and very natural way to feed the baby.

[01:16:00] Morley Robbins: The bulk of that nutrient is ol so I think people need to have a broadened view that the the form that you're talking about is very different than what's coming through breast milk. For sure. The problem we've got is that we live in a, society now that thinks butter and margin, margarine and canola oil are all the same, and they're not.

[01:16:26] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. Hopefully we don't 

[01:16:27] Christa Biegler, RD: actually live in that society anymore. Maybe 

[01:16:29] Morley Robbins: Go to the supermarket and show me the butter. 

[01:16:32] Christa Biegler, RD: They're next to each other. I do for the, 

[01:16:33] Morley Robbins: it's like 

[01:16:34] Morley Robbins: two, two sticks and there's 10,000 forms of spread. 

[01:16:39] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I never I almost ignore, sometimes you forget like what you've filtered out already.

[01:16:43] Christa Biegler, RD: And so I think it's important to share that. 'cause I'm like, 'cause we create our own silos sometimes. It's oh, I forget all of the positive food changes I made over a long time. 'cause we forget about things that we've taken care of. 

[01:16:55] Morley Robbins: Yeah. You're not aware of the filtering that you've gone through on your own, which is great and the people you're working with may not have gone through that process.

[01:17:03] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I think we can't quite end this without commenting on one other little thing, which I feel that you are etched in my brain for this because people will see maybe a low vitamin D on lab testing, but you always talk about how it is a signal, it's a signpost of inflammation.

[01:17:19] Christa Biegler, RD: Vitamin D gets used up in the inflammatory process. And so when you're seeing, earlier today I was talking about when you see low B12, it means you're not digesting animal protein. And when you see low vitamin D, it may probably mean that you it was dealing with inflammation, or it may mean that possibly, 

[01:17:38] Morley Robbins: It's a, and again, MG Mangan does a masterful job of explaining low vitamin D and its relationship to inflammation.

[01:17:46] Morley Robbins: The mistake that's made is that people have been, I think, led to believe, maybe unwittingly, but I think they've been led to believe, if I take more vitamin D. I can neutralize my inflammation, it won't do that at all. Vitamin D is a, it's a billboard for inflammation because when you lose magnesium, you're gonna get inflammation.

[01:18:11] Morley Robbins: 'cause magnesium is gonna mean, oh, iron is rising and so iron is driving the inflammation and that's gonna have a decided effect on the vitamin D. It's gonna be low, it's low, which means, oh, we've got inflammation. But drinking or swallowing capsules of vitamin D is not going to offset the iron magnesium crisis that's causing the situation.

[01:18:40] Morley Robbins: That's where I think there's needs to be clarity to get people to realize that there's more to just taking a supplement. 

[01:18:46] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah, for sure. I actually have one more question. Do you have a second? Yeah. Okay, cool. I just wanna make sure this is clear because. I think about when we take vitamin D, we're suppressing vitamin A.

[01:18:57] Christa Biegler, RD: But you gave an example of a suppression versus downregulation and you were saying vitamin D suppresses it puts a pillow over the head, the immune system, whereas the vitamin A downregulates it, which is saying it lullaby. So the vitamin A is more, I think I understand it as now I'm talking about it, but when you were talking about it in general, here's why I wanted to highlight it again because, and this is now, we're just starting this.

[01:19:23] Christa Biegler, RD: Jeff Bland has been talking about this. It's like we're not trying to boost the immune system. We are trying to create homeostasis in the immune system. Because that was another covid oversimplification misnomer is let's boost the immune system. And it's yeah, we're actually just trying to get it to be like homeostatic, actually.

[01:19:40] Christa Biegler, RD: And I think that's what you're trying, you're. You're just saying in this as well is it's oh yes. When you take vitamin A or when you're taking cod liberal with vitamin A, it's not that you're trying to boost the immune system, it's that you're supporting it into, I guess homeostasis if it's overacting or something like that.

[01:19:59] Morley Robbins: I think what we're really seeking to do within the root cause protocol is energize the body because the immune system requires energy. People don't think about, they think that the immune system always in the gut, it's got this thing going and I don't have to worry about, it's gotta have energy. If it doesn't have energy, it can't think.

[01:20:17] Morley Robbins: And so that's why it's cure your fatigue. The, it's a plan, 

[01:20:24] Christa Biegler, RD: which is real 

[01:20:24] Christa Biegler, RD: cutesy, by the way. Good job on that. 

[01:20:26] Christa Biegler, RD: I liked it. I thought 

[01:20:27] Christa Biegler, RD: it was, I thought it was good. It was a compliment. 

[01:20:29] Morley Robbins: No, but no, I appreciate that. But it's based on the the work of Douglas Wallace at Children's Hospital in Pennsylvania.

[01:20:36] Morley Robbins: Who focuses on cellular energy deficiency. That's the clinical term for fatigue. And what's the number one reason why we go see a doctor? 

[01:20:48] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm tired. I'm tired. 

[01:20:49] Christa Biegler, RD: I know This is a huge area of interest for me, actually. Like probably why I like your work. Also, I just think that we have way too many opportunities to improve energy and generally, like all, I'm very just aligned with what you're saying also.

[01:21:02] Christa Biegler, RD: But I think that it's a real sorrow for us to accept that getting tired is acceptable for us. 

[01:21:08] Morley Robbins: I know that's right. 

[01:21:09] Morley Robbins: The body needs to, when we have stress, we need to have resilience. What does that mean? It means we need to produce energy to respond to that stress.

[01:21:20] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I love that 

[01:21:21] Christa Biegler, RD: definition. 

[01:21:22] Morley Robbins: You gotta have that capacity to do that, and that's what's missing in society. 

[01:21:27] Christa Biegler, RD: I love that resilience is the energy. To respond to the stress. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Love it. Love it. That's a, like a, that has been a concept I have been noodling with for a long time. It's just resilience.

[01:21:40] Christa Biegler, RD: It's something I've been, I yeah I love that. And I wanted to share that. I was able to pull up Megan Mangans article. It looks like it's called Inflammation and Vitamin D, the Infection Connection is what I think it is. 

[01:21:53] Morley Robbins: It's a blockbuster. I think it's one of the most important articles I've got OUTTA 

[01:21:57] Morley Robbins: 10 

[01:21:58] Christa Biegler, RD: published in Inflammation Research in 2014.

[01:22:01] Christa Biegler, RD: And she's an rn. 

[01:22:03] Morley Robbins: Rn. 

[01:22:04] Christa Biegler, RD: That's super cool. , that's actually pretty I love that. And it looks like she yeah that's really cool. So I love it. And there's lots of 

[01:22:11] Morley Robbins: very well footnoted. 

[01:22:13] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. 

[01:22:15] Christa Biegler, RD: Very cool. Morley, is there anything that you want to, I think we did a pretty okay job today sticking to vitamin D, but then touching on those other important components and making sure that people know that vitamin D is necessary, but we have been going about it in correctly and without considering the downstream effects of what we're causing.

[01:22:37] Christa Biegler, RD: So is there anything that you wanna wrap up with or where can people find you online? 

[01:22:42] Morley Robbins: We're on all the social media platforms. Facebook, go, YouTube, Instagram, what have you. Just look up Root cause protocol website, RCP one two three.org. People invariably wanna reach out to me personally.

[01:22:58] Morley Robbins: That's fine. I'm very happy to do that. My email is my first and last name, Morley Robbins at gmail. For the brazen, brave view my phone number is area code (847) 922-8061. I get calls all the time and that's okay. I want to answer people's questions. I wanna make sure people understand this and look forward to the conversation.

[01:23:22] Christa Biegler, RD: Thank you so much for coming on today. So on deck is copper, but I gotta come ready to play. Okay? 

[01:23:27] Morley Robbins: That's 

[01:23:27] Morley Robbins: right. 

[01:23:29] Christa Biegler, RD: Cool.