#370 Psychedelics For Veterans and Workaholics For Shame, Blame and Guilt with Matt Zemon, MSc

This week on The Less Stressed Life Podcast, I chat with Matt Zemon, educator and author, about the transformative power of psychedelics in mental health. Matt shares his journey from avoiding drugs to becoming an advocate for psychedelics in treating trauma, PTSD, and more.

We discuss how a magic mushroom experience changed his perspective and explore stories of veterans finding healing through psychedelic therapy. We also address the stigma surrounding psychedelics and highlight the importance of responsible, safe use for emotional and spiritual healing. This is an eye-opening conversation on the growing role of psychedelics in mental health.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

• How psychedelics can transform mental health and personal growth
• The role of psilocybin and ayahuasca in healing trauma and PTSD
• Why mindset, environment, and source are critical for a safe psychedelic experience
• The importance of pre- and post-journey support in psychedelic therapy
• Psychedelics as a potential tool for end-of-life emotional healing

ABOUT GUEST:
Matt Zemon, MSc, is an educator, author, and leading voice in psychedelic wellness, focusing on how psychedelics can transform mental health. He is the author of the best-selling Psychedelics for Everyone and the integration journal Beyond the Trip. With a Master’s in psychology and neuroscience from King’s College London, Matt blends academic knowledge with a passion for promoting safe and accessible psychedelic experiences. He works closely with medical professionals to support the responsible integration of psychedelics into healthcare, particularly in treating anxiety, depression, and trauma. Matt’s mission is to dispel myths around psychedelics and highlight their potential for human optimization and mental health improvement.

WHERE TO FIND:
Website: https://mattzemon.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/matt.zemon/

WHERE TO FIND CHRISTA:
Website: https://www.christabiegler.com/
Instagram: @anti.inflammatory.nutritionist
Podcast Instagram: @lessstressedlife
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lessstressedlife
Leave a review, submit a questions for the podcast or take one of my quizzes here: ****https://www.christabiegler.com/links

NUTRITION PHILOSOPHY:

• Over restriction is dead
• Whole food is soul food and fed is best
• Sustainable, synergistic nutrition is in (the opposite of whack-a-mole supplementation & supplement graveyards)
• You don’t have to figure it out alone
• Do your best and leave the rest

Transcript

[00:00:00] Matt Zemon, MSC: the first thing that the psychedelic is going to do is turn off turn down the default mode network.

[00:00:04] Matt Zemon, MSC: So think of that inner narrator, the voice that's constantly saying you need to do more, you're not good enough that voice, it just doesn't stop talking. It turns that down. 

[00:00:13] Christa Biegler, RD: I'm your host, Christa Biegler, and I'm going to guess we have at least one thing in common that we're both in pursuit of a less stressed life. On this show, I'll be interviewing experts and sharing clinical pearls from my years of practice to support high performing health savvy women in pursuit of abundance and a less stressed life.

[00:00:43] Christa Biegler, RD: One of my beliefs is that we always have options for getting the results we want. So let's see what's out there together.

[00:00:58] Christa Biegler, RD: I have Matt Zeman, who's in. Educator, author, and leader in psychedelic wellness, specializing in the impact of psychedelics on mental health. He is the author of best selling Psychedelics for Everyone, and the Preparation and Integration Journal Beyond the Trip. Matt holds a master's degree in psychology and neuroscience from King's College in London, and he combines academic insights with a passion for safe and sacred psychedelic use, focusing on A broadening understanding and access to these transformative substances.

[00:01:31] Christa Biegler, RD: Additionally, he consults with medical practitioners in psychedelic therapy, contributing his expertise to further the responsible integration of psychedelics and healthcare. It's a great bio, Matt. Welcome to the show. 

[00:01:41] Matt Zemon, MSC: Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm excited to be here. Your work in functional medicine, nutrition certainly tie into what I'm doing and yeah, excited to see where this conversation goes.

[00:01:49] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I've been to seminars. about this topic. I've had, had a really great conversation with Ooh, I cannot remember her name. She's very famous functional medicine, Dr. Sarah, she wrote autoimmune cure and some other things. But anyway, we were having this a little offshoot to this. So I'm excited to have a very specific conversation about this topic.

[00:02:11] Christa Biegler, RD: So it's one of those areas. Yeah. Where there is some stigma and there's some opportunity and and there's some access issues. So we'll dive into all of that stuff today, but we'll start with your story and then we'll talk about some transformation stories because. That's the most important thing that anyone cares about, right?

[00:02:28] Christa Biegler, RD: Is do we identify with your story and tell us about some results that you've seen? Why are you so passionate about this? How has this affected your life? How did you go full dive into this topic? 

[00:02:39] Matt Zemon, MSC: I appreciate that. The it's such a strange story, Christa. I was a non drug user well into my 40s.

[00:02:45] Matt Zemon, MSC: And some friends invited me to a guided magic mushroom journey where they had hired a guide and said, we're going to go do this experience and you should come. I was like, yeah, I don't do that. And they said, no, you really should consider this. You love to travel. This is like taking the biggest journey of your life and you love to learn.

[00:03:01] Matt Zemon, MSC: And this is about learning for yourself. Come do it. So long story short, I did it. And in that very first experience, I reconnected with my mom who died when I was 22. She was just 49. And I could pull like a string from her to me to my kids and see how we are completely connected and still connected. I felt incredibly safe and loved in this psychedelic experience.

[00:03:23] Matt Zemon, MSC: And then realized in the next instant, I didn't feel this level of safety and love in my everyday life. And I wanted to know why. And I had insight after insight all in these first five hours. And I wanted to learn more about this. So that's what led me to going back to school.

[00:03:39] Matt Zemon, MSC: It also led me to traveling around the country and the world, experiencing different psychedelics from delivered by MDs and PhDs and Titas and maestros and shaman and and just exploring consciousness. And now I feel these tools are incredible, whether you're approaching it from a medical perspective, A decriminalization perspective or a spiritual perspective.

[00:04:03] Matt Zemon, MSC: There's a use for all of those with psychedelics. 

[00:04:07] Christa Biegler, RD: What were you doing before this big transformation in your life? Cause I feel, when people are first warming up to this as a potential modality, it's so interesting to just hear how people's lives transform. 

[00:04:19] Matt Zemon, MSC: Yeah. So I was an entrepreneur.

[00:04:21] Matt Zemon, MSC: I've built a number of different companies. I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm a brother. So I had all these different roles, but I was definitely a workaholic and I was definitely living a life of accumulation. And these never ending goals around work. And not being as emotionally available for my family, not being as available for my friends, not carving out time for myself to just enjoy this existence that I get to live.

[00:04:52] Matt Zemon, MSC: And all of that switched. And again, that very first experience was I can't. say enough how transformative it was for me. 

[00:05:00] Christa Biegler, RD: I know you just got back from Peru. You were leading a group of veterans there. So I think let's start there before we even talk about some of the other experiences that you've seen with using psychedelics.

[00:05:10] Christa Biegler, RD: As I mentioned before, there's a stigma, but as I will just to carry through with more stories, I've been witnessing my own father who's in his seventies was a Vietnam veteran. I think I feel like one of the catalysts was he had knee surgery a number of years ago and under anesthesia.

[00:05:25] Christa Biegler, RD: He woke up and he was back in the war. Now, he has never processed these things it was a very hard exterior, alcoholic father, right? A common story almost, right? And I'm seeing this kind of unravel in him, which is really interesting. And I also worked in the VA early in my career, I was an intern at the VA.

[00:05:44] Christa Biegler, RD: So I saw all those programs. I just have a soft spot for this as a potential avenue, because as you very well know, veterans need a lot of support, like what they go through and the trauma and the post trauma is exceptional. It's very exceptional. So I'm watching him in his seventies, try to unravel things.

[00:06:04] Christa Biegler, RD: And it's very hard because he has very little he doesn't have a lot of tools around that. So I share that story just because my heart is for it loves the conversation of this topic for veterans and what are the opportunities? So tell us about your trip to Peru. Tell us about how you got involved with this group of veterans.

[00:06:20] Christa Biegler, RD: Cause I just think it's like a very fun recent experience to draw from. 

[00:06:23] Matt Zemon, MSC: Yeah, and I really appreciate you sharing this about your father. I had an alcoholic father as well. And I think that story is all too much, too common in our generation. And when we think about the veterans and PTSD, it's so easy just to focus on Iraq and Afghanistan.

[00:06:38] Matt Zemon, MSC: And we can forget about those Vietnam vets who were so long ago, but that PTSD and for many of them did not go away. And even just since 9 11, I think something like four times the amount of veterans have killed themselves than the total amount that have died in combat since 9 11. So it's, it's a big number.

[00:06:57] Matt Zemon, MSC: It's a huge issue right now. And there are groups like the one I was with, which was Heroic Hearts Project, that work with veterans that take them to either Central and South America and work with ayahuasca or psilocybin mushrooms. And now they're starting to take veterans to Oregon and give them psilocybin treatments up there.

[00:07:15] Matt Zemon, MSC: to help use that modality as a tool because, as of now, none of the existing pharmacological or talk therapy solutions have worked for them. And again, the result is suicide. The result is not leading quality of life. So the result is disability. The result is broken families. The result is kids not being around their parents.

[00:07:38] Matt Zemon, MSC: And and we need another solution. The antidepressants and the anti anxiety are just not cutting it for this population. 

[00:07:46] Christa Biegler, RD: When you took this group of veterans to Peru last week, I don't know how long you were gone. Was this the first time you had worked, have you worked with veterans before, specifically?

[00:07:55] Christa Biegler, RD: The reason I ask that is because I think sometimes post journey, and I don't know what that, that support, maybe you want to walk us through very tactically how that looks and what happens for people and the support post post journey. Journey and some of the experiences, because what I'm really digging for here, Matt is tell us about a story of some results or very specific experiences that you've seen in your work with us.

[00:08:19] Matt Zemon, MSC: Yeah. So I have been working with veterans for quite a while, but this particular journey was one organized by heroic hearts project. So if you go to heroic hearts, project. org, I believe you can find out information on this amazing group. They're helping hundreds and hundreds of veterans every year and have been free for years what they do, that's really, I think quite special in their program.

[00:08:40] Matt Zemon, MSC: And then I'm going to talk, I'm going to talk about what this looks like for a veteran, and then we can talk about. Some of the experiences, but it starts off with a veteran applying to be a part of the program, doing a medical intake to make sure that they're not taking any medications or have any physical or family history that would not make it safe for them to experience the psychedelic.

[00:09:01] Matt Zemon, MSC: So I think that part is that risk reduction component with the medical screening is so important. They then, if they get accepted into the program, move into both individual coaching. As well as group calls with their cohort that's going down to Peru or over to Oregon. And in those calls, they talk about what are your intentions, what are you what are you trying to achieve from this, and also, how do you best prepare yourself?

[00:09:26] Matt Zemon, MSC: How do you prepare yourself mentally? How do you prepare yourself physically? How do you prepare your physical environment? How do you prepare your family for what you're about to do? So all of that takes place before anyone gets on an airplane. By the time people then get onto planes and the veterans arrive at these locations, they are well prepared for what's about to happen with these psychedelic journeys.

[00:09:47] Matt Zemon, MSC: Typically if they're in Oregon, they might do two psilocybin journeys back to back. If they come to Peru and do or Mexico and do ayahuasca, it might be three. ayahuasca ceremonies back to back. So they're getting a chance to go in, to come back out and debrief with their cohort, to go back in, come back out, go back in again, come back out.

[00:10:08] Matt Zemon, MSC: Then there's a day of kind of just recuperating and sharing while they're there. And then the other side of these trips, there are three more group calls and three more private coaching calls where they are able to unpack. What did you see? How did it make you feel? What are the insights and things that came clear to you during the journey?

[00:10:30] Matt Zemon, MSC: And then how are you going to incorporate those into your life? They use all sorts of different tools, from habit trackers to life satisfaction trackers, to journaling to creative items breathing exercises, mindfulness programs, all as part of this. So yes, there are psychedelics involved in the Peru case three times, but there's all this other work that goes around it so that these veterans with PTSD can remember who they are.

[00:10:58] Matt Zemon, MSC: Can remember a life before PTSD, and then can remember how to incorporate that into their everyday life with their spouses, with their children, with their friends, with their employers, and so on. 

[00:11:10] Christa Biegler, RD: Are you involved in some of that post retreat debriefing? 

[00:11:14] Matt Zemon, MSC: I am. And so I'm doing it as a full participant with this cohort just to go through the whole process with them.

[00:11:21] Matt Zemon, MSC: And then my next book is the Veterans Guide to Psychedelics, which is literally their handbook. It's going to give them all the information about different potential psychedelics so they can make an informed decision of whether they want to participate. It has all those preparation exercises in it. It has the journaling that they can do while they're down on a location, whether it's ketamine or ayahuasca or mushrooms, doesn't make a difference to log after each journey.

[00:11:44] Matt Zemon, MSC: And then it has all those integration exercises. I've done that book in collaboration with Heroic Hearts Project and with clinically reviewed by Ken Weingart, PhD, who's with the VA for 20 years. He's an amazing psychiatrist. And then Ken and I have also put together a therapist and coaches edition of that book where it even breaks down the each session that coach would have with the veteran into kind of 10 minute blocks and has email templates and additional information that would be of use to a medical professional, but not so much the veteran.

[00:12:15] Matt Zemon, MSC: So both those tools are coming out here at the end of September. 

[00:12:18] Christa Biegler, RD: Okay. So talk to us about. Some of the things or tell us about some stories that you've experienced as you've walked this journey with others, whether it's these veterans or other people, or maybe even some of your favorites that kind of come to mind maybe the intentions that they had or what were the results that they saw as they journeyed through this?

[00:12:39] Matt Zemon, MSC: Yeah, I think what I'm gonna do for this is start with one of my stories that just highlight. How powerful these medicines can be for turning off shame, blame, and guilt, which is often associated with PTSD. So in one of my journeys something happened that was not my intention. When I was an early teenager, I had some inappropriate sexual contact with a family member 10 years older.

[00:13:01] Matt Zemon, MSC: And that was something I was mortified about. I just, I couldn't believe it happened. I was just, I couldn't talk about it. I just carried around the shame. And for decades I carried around so much so that even when I started to do this work, it didn't even occur to me to bring this up as an intention.

[00:13:17] Matt Zemon, MSC: But on one of these journeys There I was back in the room and what they teach us as we go into working with psychedelics is if something is scary, is uncomfortable, don't run away from it. Look it in the eyes. Go to the expression is if you see a dragon, go into the dragon's nose and look out through the dragon's eyes.

[00:13:37] Matt Zemon, MSC: In this situation, for the first time in my life, I could look at this person not as a perpetrator of bad things, but as a human. And while I don't have to condone what she did, I could understand the humanity of someone who wasn't feeling loved, who was feeling rejected from her father, who was dealing with substance use challenges, and I could just understand the humanity.

[00:14:00] Matt Zemon, MSC: And by understanding the humanity, I could find a place in my heart to let it go, and that it wasn't mine to carry, and there was nothing, I wasn't the adult in the room, there's nothing to be ashamed of and I could truly just let it go. And for me, after carrying that around for 30 some years That was a big deal.

[00:14:18] Matt Zemon, MSC: I think that same principle, when we turn off shame, blame, and guilt, using whether it's MDMA or psilocybin or ayahuasca, amazing things can happen. And we're seeing that, we're seeing that with veterans, we're seeing that with first responders, we're seeing that with victims of sexual assault. All sorts of people are getting tremendous healing.

[00:14:37] Matt Zemon, MSC: That up to this point, nothing has worked. 

[00:14:41] Christa Biegler, RD: Let's talk about what happens in the brain. And I think this could vary from which psychedelic we're talking about. So I don't know if you want to divide between those four. Might give us a little more context to each as well. Yeah, let's talk about what happens in the brain that allows for this shift.

[00:14:57] Matt Zemon, MSC: Yeah, let me take this just at a high level. That's broadly speaking psychedelic. So maybe for someone that's again, ketamine and in a medical environment, and maybe such someone else, it's psilocybin at a ceremonial retreat, but the first thing that the psychedelic is going to do is turn off turn down the default mode network.

[00:15:13] Matt Zemon, MSC: So think of that inner narrator, the voice that's constantly saying you need to do more, you're not good enough that voice, it just doesn't stop talking. It turns that down. So for many of us, when that comes down. It feels like the weight of the world has been lifted off of our shoulders. And it's just quiet and that feels really good.

[00:15:33] Matt Zemon, MSC: The next thing that starts to happen is neurons start to fire together that probably haven't fired together in, in many years since we were kids. So our brain, if you in, , in neuroimaging, you can see our brains literally light up with psychedelics. This allows thought patterns to happen. And and as to break existing repetitive thought patterns.

[00:15:52] Matt Zemon, MSC: So again, the analogy that I think Michael Pollan came up with is imagine you're skiing down a mountain. As we get older, as we go into our 20s, into our 30s, into our 40s, the tracks just get deeper to the point where we can't ski on the whole track anymore. We're just skiing this one run over and over.

[00:16:08] Matt Zemon, MSC: The psychedelic puts a fresh coat of powder and all of a sudden we're skiing all over the track. And we remember. Oh, I don't have to think about this like that. I don't have to think about this relationship like this way. There's another way to think. And with that insight, with that awareness, we can then remember that following the psychedelic and incorporate that into our lives.

[00:16:29] Matt Zemon, MSC: So again, quiet down the default mode network, relight up the brain with these neurons firing together. Like I said, turn off shame, blame, and guilt. Part of why this is so effective in in couples work, is it allows one partner to say, Christa, I love you so much. And when you do this, It makes me feel this way and for the partner to hear that and instead of becoming defensive to say back Oh my goodness I did not ever intend for that to be what happened and I hear you and I love you and I Understand what you're saying And I'm going to do better.

[00:17:05] Matt Zemon, MSC: And that type of defenses down conversation can be truly healing for partners. It can be healing for parents. I love it in ceremony when there's 80 year old grandmom and 55 year old dad and 30 year old kid all in the same room. I think that's just so beautiful. And the healing that can happen from those types of scenarios is just, it's just phenomenal.

[00:17:26] Matt Zemon, MSC: And then I think the last thing that happens oftentimes is people talk about having some type of spiritual encounter. This happens so frequently that there's actually a mystical experience questionnaire that's been created and refined since the sixties, where they can quantifiably determine how mystical of experience did you have?

[00:17:46] Matt Zemon, MSC: Some, for many people who feel alone, who feel unsupported, who feel isolated, having some type of spiritual experience can be very comforting. They can feel the interconnectedness of all things through that experience. They can remember at our essence, we are these spiritual creatures having a human existence.

[00:18:05] Matt Zemon, MSC: And it's just beautiful. Yeah. So for, I think a lot, you put all those things together and these medicines can be tremendously effective for such a wide variety of things. And that's where it's, I know, cause I watched the media and I see all the psychedelics being studied for depression, anxiety, OCD, eating disorders, substance use, it seems like autism, it seems like it's never ending and.

[00:18:30] Matt Zemon, MSC: All of these things have repetitive thinking patterns at its core. I would imagine many of the things you deal with in the nutritional world and the functional medicine have to do with repetitive thinking patterns. 

[00:18:39] Christa Biegler, RD: Absolutely. It's only 50%. 

[00:18:42] Matt Zemon, MSC: Okay, only 50. 

[00:18:43] Christa Biegler, RD: 50 percent nutritional, 50 percent emotional.

[00:18:46] Christa Biegler, RD: Or people at least, or 75 percent emotional I think, right? Repetitive thinking patterns. It reminds me of this back surgeon I've had on the show a few times, and he's got a book coming out about repetitive unproductive thoughts. I don't know if that's a real term or if he coined it, but He calls it ruts.

[00:19:04] Christa Biegler, RD: And it was, I think he's interesting story because he watched his people have pain. He watched a lot of people go through surgery and end up worse. He had his own symptom manifestation that he didn't believe could even be related to emotions. And ultimately, He was so dramatically impressed with not psychedelics, but other emotional modalities that he was like, this could never work for pain, and pain would just turn off.

[00:19:30] Christa Biegler, RD: It would just literally turn off. And I just think it's dramatic, to have to, it must be a bit of an identity crisis to go give up your pain. Surgeon life to pursue that in a way, right? It's wow, I guess I'm going to detach from everything I knew to do something better.

[00:19:45] Christa Biegler, RD: But when you say repetitive thinking patterns, just reminds me of Dr. Hans come because he really liked 

[00:19:50] Christa Biegler, RD: that and repetitive, unproductive thoughts. I have not heard that phraseology or ruts. It might be 

[00:19:56] Christa Biegler, RD: unpleasant. Actually, I don't remember if it's unpleasant or unproductive, but regardless, either one.

[00:20:01] Matt Zemon, MSC: Sure. And it's easy 

[00:20:02] Matt Zemon, MSC: to say I'm caught in a, stuck in a rut. So I like it either way. It's easy to remember. I'm borrowing that. That's great. And he is right. And it manifests as. All sorts of behaviors, overeating, pain, those are all again, substance use challenge, workaholism yeah, all sorts of addictions all come from those repetitive, unproductive, or unpleasant thoughts.

[00:20:22] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. 

[00:20:22] Matt Zemon, MSC: And we also have studying some other things that historically have been out of the control of the person. So for instance, autism and psychedelics. There's a group out of Denver that's been working with University of Toronto and I believe Imperial College London, I think University of California, San Francisco studying autism.

[00:20:40] Matt Zemon, MSC: And I talked to these people and it's incredible. One person who tells the story pretty publicly says, I didn't have panic attacks. My life was a panic attack. And for him, MDMA showed him another way to live. And just once a year, he does an MDMA reset to reset his system to put a lighthouse out there so he can navigate through his life without the panic attacks.

[00:21:02] Matt Zemon, MSC: Another one of them, again, tells the story pretty publicly. He said, my parents didn't know how much I loved them. And I couldn't read the room. I couldn't read human emotion. And for him, LSD unlocked those keys, it allowed him to understand how other people were viewing their conversations and it turned his affect, which was so flat, into less flat and allowed him to express his emotions to his parents.

[00:21:29] Matt Zemon, MSC: And we've had in ceremonies, I've been involved with autistic people and it's just, it's beautiful. We had one recently who what she'll say is like all of her social anxiety went away. And she was 50 something and hadn't really didn't know what that felt like. We had another gentleman, 76, who just wanted his goal was just to experience emotion once in his life.

[00:21:52] Matt Zemon, MSC: And just couldn't believe what emotion felt like. So it's remarkable what these tools can do for such a wide range of things. 

[00:22:00] Christa Biegler, RD: It's interesting the intentions that people come up with because I would not have guessed those to be the intentions, right? I would not have guessed those. I think, the term psychedelics is quite an umbrella, right?

[00:22:11] Christa Biegler, RD: It's quite an umbrella. And one of the challenges, so here's the good news. There's been research being done on this for a while. We know it takes a while for research to get into practice. As far as I know, there's training programs for clinicians to facilitate this because that's been the interesting thing.

[00:22:29] Christa Biegler, RD: It's, is it kind of fringe? Are you going to wherever to do this or, how are you being monitored or overseen? How is this process being overseen? Because people don't always have great experiences. And before we unpack some of the details around the different types of psychedelics and maybe what's accessible where we are and why sometimes you go to different places, maybe it's appropriate to say, are there times, you mentioned earlier that there's an intake.

[00:22:57] Christa Biegler, RD: to determine if it's not appropriate for someone to do the psychedelic journey. What would create an inappropriate case or inappropriate candidate for that journey? And then let's talk about any downsides. And I think it's going to vary by the psychedelic, but maybe we can unpack that next, but I'd love to hear about that as well.

[00:23:15] Christa Biegler, RD: Cause, I think there is for sure there's some stigma around things that are like not readily accessible or legal yet or mainstream yet. And so understanding the pros and the cons help with that. 

[00:23:29] Matt Zemon, MSC: I really appreciate that question. My first book is called Psychedelics for Everyone.

[00:23:33] Matt Zemon, MSC: And I certainly don't mean that everyone should take a psychedelic for this exact reason, but I do think they're good for society. And I think whether they're for you, for someone you love, or just to help you vote in the next election it's important to understand how these work. So who is not a good candidate for psychedelics?

[00:23:49] Matt Zemon, MSC: Someone who doesn't have a firm grasp of this world is where it starts. So that can look like someone who's schizophrenic. It can look like someone who's in an active state with a bipolar It can look like certain personality disorders, although that's a tricky one because those are so oftentimes falsely diagnosed, especially for women.

[00:24:07] Matt Zemon, MSC: There are certain medications that if you're taking can make certain psychedelics really dangerous. So if you're taking an antidepressant, as an example, taking ayahuasca, taking MDMA super, super dangerous. If you're taking an antidepressant, you probably can take psilocybin. You probably can take ketamine.

[00:24:27] Matt Zemon, MSC: So just knowing those differences. There are supplements that some of them have ingredients in the supplements, even over the counter, that are dangerous. So what I always say is, look, the best thing a person can do is do their own risk assessment. Don't trust Either the medical provider you're looking to work with, the ceremonial leader, the retreat in Jamaica or Costa Rica or the Netherlands, go to people like spiritpharmacist.

[00:24:50] Matt Zemon, MSC: com, where there's a PharmD who will take your medical information and he'll give you your own report and have a conversation with you without trying to sell you anything. And he'll just tell you, these are the risks that we know. And these are the risks that you are walking into so that you can then make your own informed decision of whether you want to participate in whatever it is that you're looking to participate in.

[00:25:13] Matt Zemon, MSC: So he's one example. That's Dr. Ben Malcolm, spirit pharmacist. Yeah, I think having that information makes a world of difference. And most of these other places will look at those things. And then they'll decide whether it's okay for you to come or not, but I think it's really up to the individual to make their own informed decision before signing those releases that say, Oh yeah, all these bad things might happen, but not to me.

[00:25:36] Matt Zemon, MSC: They should know what the risks are for themselves. 

[00:25:39] Christa Biegler, RD: And I'll use my own story here in transparency. And I actually was I had, I didn't realize I had shame around it initially because I had colleagues who I deeply respect, love that were like, wow, I did this. mushroom journey and it just changed my relationship with my mother and whatnot.

[00:25:56] Christa Biegler, RD: And I was on a journey of let me try every modality for nervous system because I love efficiency and efficacy. And I'm always like, let me go try all these things so I can be able to tell, anyone else who needs to know or just for myself, I'm for sure. Game to be the experimental person for sure.

[00:26:15] Christa Biegler, RD: So in retrospect, what I did was I went into that experience just on the I'm just game to try this thing. I have this capacity. I can do it after this one trip. And so I went to the same person that some of my colleagues had gone to just trusting their recommendation. And.

[00:26:33] Christa Biegler, RD: It was such an uncomfortable experience. Like I could not wait to leave. I could not wait to leave. I wanted it to be over right then. And it doesn't really work like that. And you do not sleep well after a mushroom journey. And it took me a while. I was like, I don't know exactly why I hated that so much.

[00:26:48] Christa Biegler, RD: And I was able to unpack later with a different colleague who pointed out to me like, Oh, you did not trust this person. And I was like, Oh my gosh, that was exactly the problem. I did not feel safe and entrust. of this person. Not that she was like a dangerous person. She was not. I just did not feel safe or entrust in that situation.

[00:27:06] Christa Biegler, RD: And so when I hear you talk about the journey that these veterans go on that has a pre component, to help someone understand it reminds me of getting LASIK surgery, right? And they warn you up for it. And during the LASIK surgery, they tell you literally step by step exactly what is going to happen.

[00:27:22] Christa Biegler, RD: It creates this amazing sense of safety, right? That you have, which I just didn't know. And this is where, I can learn from that experience. I'm glad to have unpacked it at this point. And I'm not opposed to a different experience in the future. But for a while, I was like, Ooh, I do not want that was not for me.

[00:27:38] Christa Biegler, RD: I do not want that. Just because I was not able to unpack it. And I think being transparent about this is acceptable because we're still in the Wild West phase of this, which we'll talk about in a moment. We're still a little bit in the Wild West phase, which is it's a little bit of referral based to be perfectly honest.

[00:27:54] Christa Biegler, RD: There's not one place you go. It's not like in every town. You like Google up how you're going to go do that. It's not that accessible. And as people become whatever certified is to oversee this. It's going to look different. And so people have different experiences. And that's how this applies to absolutely every everything in life.

[00:28:14] Christa Biegler, RD: But I share this because now I see where my issues and deficiencies were and part of that process, and in ways that could be better. And I see if I was going to do that again, how I'd want it to be different or better. So I wanted to offer that. And maybe, I don't know if you've, if you have any thoughts or any experiences to chime in on that same thing, but that was, an important thing I did not understand, going into that.

[00:28:38] Matt Zemon, MSC: Yeah, that is, that's so important. Johns Hopkins has done a bunch of resource and actually put together how do you navigate psychedelic experiences safely. And they, one of the number one things they talk about is that relationship between the guide or the facilitator and the participant. But overall, it's actually let me break it down this way.

[00:28:59] Matt Zemon, MSC: They have three S's. It's easy to remember it's source set and setting. So sources, where did your drugs come from? Where did the medicine come from? Are you sure they are pure? If you're buying off the internet, you don't really know what you're buying. If you're working with someone, if you're working with a pharmacy, that's pure.

[00:29:16] Matt Zemon, MSC: If you're working with anything underground or in your retreat, Making sure they do this a lot is important. Set is that mindset. And that ties back to what you're saying. Do you feel safe and comfortable with the person who's serving you? Do you feel safe and comfortable with the other people in the Do you understand the rules? Do you understand your intention? Do you understand how long this is going to be? Do you understand what might happen in your body when you're taking these medicines? Do you understand what to do if you become scared? Or you're in a loop? Or yeah, that's all part of the set, your mindset.

[00:29:48] Matt Zemon, MSC: And then the setting is what's the physical environment actually like? Are you going to be interrupted by kids or dogs or neighbors or Amazon? Do you have control over the music? Are you worried about being touched? Are you worried about being spoken to? Are you worried about being influenced? All those things have are important, but if you can control source, set, and setting the probability of having truly a bad trip.

[00:30:10] Matt Zemon, MSC: Is very low. Now you can have a challenging experience. You can have one that is emotionally really hard. Like the one I talked about just a minute ago, but that's not necessary. And it's not a bad experience. It's just a hard experience. But those for me have been where the growth edges have been.

[00:30:26] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. 

[00:30:27] Matt Zemon, MSC: But source set and setting so important. And I'm sorry that you had that experience with that person. And I'm thrilled that you've come to this point and realized. What kind of happened and have a plan for it if you choose to do it again. 

[00:30:40] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I think, on the positive side, all of our experiences help us know what we want to do or not do in the future.

[00:30:47] Christa Biegler, RD: And so even in my, I'll just use this as an example, even in my private practice, I do so many things out of realizing my own experience. I didn't like a certain other process. And so even you just describing those three S's, Is not something I've heard. I knew that John Hopkins was a leader in this area, but I didn't know they had that guidance.

[00:31:06] Christa Biegler, RD: And I think that's so simple yet. So necessary to know that, honestly, if those three S's are not accounted for in your onboarding experience, no matter what you choose, maybe. It's not a good fit. Maybe. 

[00:31:23] Matt Zemon, MSC: I would think. Probably more than maybe. Yeah. It's not a good fit. And that goes back to your access thing and to so many people operating from a fear of missing out versus I'm in control.

[00:31:32] Matt Zemon, MSC: This is my life. I'm in control. I'm going to determine who I'm going to work with and I'm going to control when I'm going to work with them. And this ties back into, it's your choice whether you choose medical Or you choose a decriminalization, I'm just going to do it on my own, or you choose a religious freedom modality.

[00:31:54] Matt Zemon, MSC: It's all your choice, and there's different risks and pros and cons with each one. And there's different reasoning for each one. But it's your choice, it's your life. 

[00:32:05] Christa Biegler, RD: So this next section, I think go hand in hand. It really has to do with access. Thanks. Truly, so you've mentioned a few psychedelics today.

[00:32:15] Christa Biegler, RD: You've talked about psilocybin or mushrooms. You mentioned ketamine, which is pharmaceutically been used as an anesthetic, maybe for headaches as well. You would know better than I will. So you'll correct me in a moment. MDMA, yes. And ayahuasca. Now access to these varies and we'll talk about the United States because we're both in the United States, right?

[00:32:36] Christa Biegler, RD: So we'll talk about the access to these particular psychedelics in the United States from an access perspective of just legal. What's going on there? What are people's access? Is there special exceptions to being able to use this in certain programming, in research? Talk to us about that, whatever you know about that.

[00:32:53] Christa Biegler, RD: And then really the second part is just a different version of access, which is finding reputable partners or places to go. And that's the thing is I just went by a referral and part of FOMO, I was like, Hey, I ought to try all the things. And I learned that, Oh. That was not the most informed way to go about that.

[00:33:12] Christa Biegler, RD: Okay, I will not do it like that in the future. Do not do that like that. So talk to us about access. 

[00:33:19] Matt Zemon, MSC: All right. So first for if you're looking for legal and you're anywhere in the United States, ketamine is your only option. Ketamine is technically not a psychedelic. It's a dissociative anesthetic, as you said, Christa.

[00:33:30] Matt Zemon, MSC: But it is close enough that we categorize it as a psychedelic experience. For those who choose that you can type in ketamine provider near me. And typically you would go into a ketamine clinic and take either an IV or an intermuscular shot, or maybe a nasal spray. And it's used off label for depression and anxiety.

[00:33:52] Matt Zemon, MSC: other way you can get it is you can go online in many states, and there are companies that sell mail order ketamine, and you can get a lozenge and do it at home. What I caution people with ketamine is this. There is an ideological divide between the medical professionals with ketamine.

[00:34:11] Matt Zemon, MSC: Some believe that ketamine is just a biochemical reaction. You put it in your body, it's going to work in your glutamate system, and it's going to cure depression and anxiety because that's what the medicine does. Okay, great. There are other providers who believe it's a biochemical, psychosocial, spiritual process.

[00:34:29] Matt Zemon, MSC: And it's not just the medicine in your system. It's all of the things we talked about before. And it's the intention. It's the journey. It's the integration. And they give a much more complete Perspective with ketamine. So probably maybe how you would describe the difference, maybe between a functional medicine doctor in a general practitioner the pricing doesn't often vary that much.

[00:34:49] Matt Zemon, MSC: And sometimes people don't want all those services because they already are working with coaches or therapists who are doing some of those things for them, but it's a, definitely a buyer beware. What do you want to ask those questions and and see what the provider provides, because they're legal.

[00:35:06] Matt Zemon, MSC: But they're not all the same. 

[00:35:08] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. 

[00:35:08] Christa Biegler, RD: That makes some sense. I have stayed out of this. Like I haven't advised, I don't have any experience. I don't have, I don't give any opinions about this topic, but I remember recently a client sharing, she didn't very much share this with me.

[00:35:22] Christa Biegler, RD: I read it in some of her notes and documentation that she filled out between our appointments. And I remember she had gone in to do some ketamine stuff. And I, if I. Recall it was not a good experience, but that would make sense if we think about if this is not really supervised, if someone's not working with someone, then I could see where this could really be an issue.

[00:35:42] Christa Biegler, RD: It's like why things are regulated in the first place. If you don't really know what you're doing maybe you should work with someone who knows what they're doing first to help you through that experience. Just an idea if you want to have the best case experience.

[00:35:56] Matt Zemon, MSC: What's strange here, though, Christa is I'm going to go back to this ideological divide. There are nurse anesthesiologists, anesthesiologists who work with ketamine all the time, and they believe that they know how to do it best. And they believe it's biochemical. And there's others of us who say That's not the right way for this type of medicine.

[00:36:14] Matt Zemon, MSC: It's not that's a Western mindset and this is not just a Western solution. So again, both are legal, both it is regulated. And for me, that doesn't work going in and just getting ketamine IV isn't what I'm looking for, but for someone else, it might be. So that's ketamine. That's legal. All 50 States that's access.

[00:36:34] Matt Zemon, MSC: In many cities, in all of Colorado and all of Oregon, there's been a decriminalization movement. So these maybe Ann Arbor, Michigan, Washington, D. C. would be two other examples. These are cities that have not legalized, but they have decriminalized psychedelics, many of them, to make them the lowest priority for law enforcement, which means they're effectively able to have access in those places.

[00:36:58] Matt Zemon, MSC: We're seeing more of that decrim nature movement move around the country. There's kind of two foundations to that movement foundation. Number one is no adult should tell another adult that they can't put nature in their body. And I get that as a libertarian movement. I understand where they're coming from now.

[00:37:14] Matt Zemon, MSC: The other logic behind them is it's just not fair for an access perspective that only people who can afford psychedelics can have access to them and those who come from less wealthy backgrounds don't when they can, everybody can grow mushrooms. It's super easy to do and they're found in every continent.

[00:37:34] Matt Zemon, MSC: So I understand that perspective. So that's another way for people to get access. And if, depending on where you live for those who don't have, aren't already, aren't decriminalized. You many cities, if you type in psychedelic society in your city or your state. There will be a psychedelic society of some sort and there will be a range of people from medical professionals working with ketamine to decrim nature people.

[00:37:59] Matt Zemon, MSC: And that's a great place to just ask around who's working in my area, who has some underground practices, which therapists or coaches are using these tools. Are there ceremonial leaders in this area? It's a great place to find resources. And then that third area of access is what I classify as a religious freedom group.

[00:38:20] Matt Zemon, MSC: And there's somewhere between 200 and 750 psychedelic churches in America. We don't know the exact number, but it's a decent amount. And these are all people who are using psychedelics, and actually they don't call them psychedelics, they call them entheogens. Because they're occasioning God from within, and they're using them in a spiritual practice as we have done for thousands and thousands of years.

[00:38:42] Matt Zemon, MSC: These are people who believe they're protected under the constitution and the the religious freedom restoration act, and that they don't want to prove that they have enough depression or anxiety or eating disorder or substance use challenge to be allowed to do psychedelics. They believe they're allowed to as a way to connect with their spirit or the divine and as a way to explore consciousness.

[00:39:06] Matt Zemon, MSC: And for those who are interested in that modality, again, going to the psychedelic societies, asking around googling for psychedelic churches and reaching out to people like me and saying I'm looking for a church or do you know of anyone, blah, blah. That's all good ways to find who's working in this arena.

[00:39:22] Matt Zemon, MSC: And that's just another It's another way to access the medicine, and just like we said in the medical side, not all churches are created equal not all structures are the same, so the same questions about where do your drugs come from, what is going to be my mindset, and what are you going to do to help me prepare it, and what's going to be the setting, apply to all three of these areas.

[00:39:42] Matt Zemon, MSC: And I guess there is a fourth area, which is psychedelic tourism. There are people who fly to Peru, Costa Rica, Mexico, Colombia the Netherlands, Jamaica. All looking for psychedelic retreats, and again, the same questions apply for any of those solutions as well. 

[00:39:59] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. Man, Matt, there's a lot to unpack in this conversation.

[00:40:04] Christa Biegler, RD: I feel that we're just at the beginning of the conversation because as you bring all this up, I think about, oh yes, I talked about my dad as a veteran earlier, I guess I knew this internally, but I forgot until you were just talking that he would have such a block around something like this because his son struggled with other types of drug abuse.

[00:40:24] Christa Biegler, RD: And or my brother And so of course like we're we're creating this, there's like an interesting bridge where it's for a long time drugs have destroyed lives. And now you've given us perspective of where psychedelic medicines or as some people would call them drugs could potentially give life to people if used in the right.

[00:40:43] Christa Biegler, RD: And often I think this may boil down to as well. The three yeses, as we described, but sometimes I can't think of the expression, but it's something like the dose is very important. The dose. It's the, 

[00:40:55] Matt Zemon, MSC: The difference between medicine and poison is dose. 

[00:40:58] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

[00:40:59] Matt Zemon, MSC: And our society's perspective on drugs is funny.

[00:41:02] Matt Zemon, MSC: You and I grew up in this just say no generation and I probably had more indoctrination than you did into that, but that idea that all drugs are bad, they're going to fry our brains. They're going to lead us to addiction. We never separated out that. Oh wait, caffeine's a drug. Oh wait, alcohol is a drug.

[00:41:16] Matt Zemon, MSC: Tobacco is a drug. 

[00:41:18] Christa Biegler, RD: All perspective. 

[00:41:20] Matt Zemon, MSC: Yeah, we didn't talk about that. 

[00:41:21] Christa Biegler, RD: Our perspective 

[00:41:21] Christa Biegler, RD: is different when it's legal, right? Which is where the access question comes from, right? Of course it's laced with, does everyone want to do this or are they going to get in trouble for it?

[00:41:30] Christa Biegler, RD: So there's just a lot to unpack because it's, we start with the results of what is on the other side of this journey that I may want? What's my intention? I think that's a beautiful thing as we even, because I think this could be multiple conversations if we wanted it to be, but I think as we start to conclude today's conversation That's really the starting place.

[00:41:49] Christa Biegler, RD: And that can be a starting place for a lot of transformation is what is my intention? What do I want to gain from a thing? Whatever this thing is like, what is it that I'm seeking? What am I looking for? And often the question helps us come to the right answer. I don't know. I think it applies here too.

[00:42:06] Matt Zemon, MSC: It 100 percent applies here. It's a very different journey for someone who's coming, who's wrestling with alcohol abuse or workaholism than it is for someone who's coming at end of life. They've gotten a terminal cancer diagnoses and they're being given. Psilocybin to rapidly decrease their depression and anxiety.

[00:42:27] Matt Zemon, MSC: It doesn't change the outcome, but it completely changes the way they experience, and I'll just take it one more step. So that's medical, right? There, a lot of trials being done with end of life patients and psilocybin where spiritual jumps in is not just giving that psilocybin to the person in the active state of dying.

[00:42:46] Matt Zemon, MSC: But giving it to their friends and family so that together they can have conversations that need to be had. They can change the way they all experience this transition. And and again it's beautiful to watch. 

[00:42:59] Christa Biegler, RD: All of the examples you've given today have been like, Oh, I never would have thought about it for that example.

[00:43:05] Christa Biegler, RD: So that, that's been pretty eyeopening and interesting for me, which is, my favorite thing about the podcast, anytime I could be intrigued, have my horizons completely broadened, I would have never thought about an end of life use, and how, but I could see how that could be pretty powerful.

[00:43:22] Christa Biegler, RD: It's crazy. Hugely 

[00:43:24] Christa Biegler, RD: powerful. 

[00:43:24] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah. I'm guessing, how long have you been in this arena Matt? 

[00:43:28] Matt Zemon, MSC: A little bit over six years doing this full time. 

[00:43:32] Christa Biegler, RD: I think we shall have more conversations over time, right? 

[00:43:35] Matt Zemon, MSC: I would love that. 

[00:43:36] Christa Biegler, RD: Where can people find you online? 

[00:43:38] Matt Zemon, MSC: Yeah, so my books Psychedelics for Everyone, Beyond the Trip, and soon the Veteran's Guide to Psychedelics are all available on Amazon.

[00:43:45] Matt Zemon, MSC: Psychedelics for Everyone has an Audible book as well. Mattzieman. com, you can go there if you want a free guide to microdosing. If that's something you're interested in, you can go there and sign up for that. And then I'm active on Instagram and LinkedIn and love when people bring me in to speak to their organizations and groups, love traveling around and spreading this information.

[00:44:04] Christa Biegler, RD: Yeah, cool. Thank you so much for coming on today. 

[00:44:06] Matt Zemon, MSC: Christa, thanks for taking on this topic.