Less Stressed Life: Helping You Heal Yourself

#102 IV Vitamin C Therapy For Cancer (& the first NIH funded grant) with Dr. Jeanne Drisko

March 11, 2020 Christa Biegler
Less Stressed Life: Helping You Heal Yourself
#102 IV Vitamin C Therapy For Cancer (& the first NIH funded grant) with Dr. Jeanne Drisko
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

What do you think of when someone says Vitamin C? 

Depending on our body’s immune function and overall “load” of environmental or infectious stressors, our need for Vitamin C when we’re challenged with infections can rise dramatically. But this commonly deficient nutrient also has a claim to fame for issues with depression, muscle spasms/cramps, and dental health….and also, cancer.  

In this week's episode of the Less Stressed Life podcast, Dr. Jeanne Drisko schools us on the significance and mechanisms of how Vitamin C intravenous is done safely and shares how her research study is the first of its kind in the United States looking at the benefits of IV Vitamin C for cancer therapy.


Key Takeaways:

[15:32] Vitamin C mechanism on killing the cancer cells

[18:38] Essentials of Vitamin C on cancer patient

[24:46] Proper Vitamin C dosing for cancer patient

[27:42] Cautions prior to taking Vitamin C


Mentioned in this episode:

  • Types of cancer which Vitamin C is less effective
  • The Warburg effect
  • Health benefits of IV Vitamin C
  • Reduced side effects on chemotherapy cancer patients due to IV Vitamin C


New textbook co-authored by Dr. Drisko: Integrative and Functional Medicine Nutrition Therapy


Jeanne Drisko, MD is Professor Emeritus in the Department of Internal Medicine at the University of Kansas Medical Center. During her previous tenure as director of KU Integrative Medicine, she conducted translational research and provided patient care, education, and service to the region and the nation. The most important aspect of KU Integrative Medicine was the integrative medicine education agenda with students from medicine, nursing, pharmacy, nutrition and dietetics, physical therapy, occupational therapy, and naturopathic schools completing rotations in the division. In 2008, Dr. Drisko developed an integrative medicine fellowship for MD primary care providers with a certificate granted at successful completion by the Graduate Medical Education Office at the University of Kansas Medical Center. Of importance was the creation of the integrative nutrition program for master’s level dieticians, co-developed and taught with the KU Department of Dietetics and Nutrition and dieticians in KU Integrative Medicine. Master’s degrees in integrative nutrition were granted to the graduates – the first of its kind in the nation. Since stepping down as a clinic director in 2018, Dr. Drisko is passionately devoting her time to research, scholarly writing, and education.

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spk_1:   0:00
welcome to the less stressed life podcast, where our only priority is providing those ah ha moments toe up level your life, health and happiness. Your

spk_0:   0:09
host, Integrative dietitian nutritionist Krista Bigler, helps health conscious women reduce the stress and confusion around food, fatigue, digestive and skin issues at less stress. Nutrition dot com Now onto the show. Okay, today in the less stress life, we have a very special guest. And although she's going to be talking a lot about infusion therapy and vitamin C therapy, she also has a lot of history in helping bring integrative medicine to the forefront. So let's talk about her a little bit. So Dr Jeannie Dress Code is a professor emeritus at the Department of Internal Medicine at University of Kansas City Medical Center. During her previous tenure as a director of K U Integrative Medicine, she conducted translational research and provided patient care, education and service to the region and the nation. Now she is very humble and has done a lot to bring integrative medicine to the forefront. And it's so interesting to have an integrated medicine clinic in a regular hospital. So she mentions that some of the most important aspects of kay you integrative medicine was the integrative medicine education agenda, with students from medicine and nursing, pharmacy, nutrition, dietetics, physical therapy, occupational therapy and naturopathic schools completing rotations in the division. So everyone kind of coming together. In 2008 Doctor Disco developed an integrative medicine fellowship for M D primary care providers with a certificate granted a successful completion by the Graduate Medical Office at the University of Kansas Medical Center. She was also instrumental in creation of integrative nutrition program for masters levels. Dietitians co developed and talked with K U Department of Dietetics in nutrition and dietitians at Keough Integrative Medicine and helped with deposition Get that master of students. And we could talk a little bit about that because that's a very unique certificate, really. The first of its kind in the nation. She has since stepped down as clinical director since 2018 of kay you integrated medicine. But she is passionately devoting her time to research scholarly writing education and recently helping other medical schools get integrative programming into place. So welcome, Doctor. Disco. Hey,

spk_1:   2:05
thank you so much. I really appreciate it

spk_0:   2:07
s So we were chatting a little bit off air, and I think, Let's take a chance. We don't want to get into the I V vitamin C. It's gonna be very interesting, but I get a lot of emails from people that say I didn't know I was interested in integrative medicine until I started listening to this podcast or you've really opened my eyes to different things. And so briefly, can you tell us about like, for example, for dietitians? You guys did create a certificate that people can get anyone could get. If you're a dietitian or if you're another professional, I believe you can go get the certificate. Is that correct from K. You Integrated Met?

spk_1:   2:35
It is a master's level for registered dietitian, so it's pretty specific, and it's pretty narrow, the funnel getting into the program. But once you get into that program and get your master's certificate in integrative nutrition, you know the funnel opens up at the other end and the world is your oyster, so to speak.

spk_0:   2:56
Okay, so let's talk about how you got into this a little bit because it is not very common to start an integrated medical clinic in a hospital 20 years ago. So let's talk about how that

spk_1:   3:08
well, it was a very unusual time. And, you know, there really wasn't a good track to become educated. But I had a personal experience, a health crisis in the early nineties, and I got better using Cem integrated practices, simply better nutrition and some supplements. I mean, I was better very quickly, and I was not happy because in medical school we were told that first of all, nutrition wasn't that important, just ate your standard American diet and that supplements were a waste of money and made expensive urine. So our medical school education didn't really focus on any of that, which was, I think, a tragedy. But because of my health crisis, I was able to refocus and relearn, not relearn, actually learn nutritional biochemistry. And I did it through getting to know different types of practitioners across the country and then having very good fortune of being trained by Hugh Reardon, who was a medical doctor. He since died in 2005 which was a huge tragedy. But anyway, he trained me in the use of intravenous vitamin C, the testing of vitamin mineral and other nutrients and what good food is. He had a little cafeteria at the center and where he was located, and it really was all good, whole natural food. So it was a wonderful opportunity. So after that training and I received a certificate in integrative medicine or orthomolecular medicine from him and the dean at the time of the University of Kansas Medical School asked me to come and start the program. This was maybe more in the later nineties. By that time, and everybody in the United States wanted to have an integrated program at their medical school. They didn't know what that meant. It often meant just maybe some mind body or relax ation or acupuncture. Nothing too aggressive, so to speak. But I was fortunate in that I was left alone. People really ignored me, and so I could pretty much developed what I wanted to develop. So that's a very long answer to hear. Great question.

spk_0:   5:23
Well, it is actually probably a very condensed answer to what years of work it was, but I think it's interesting. I wanted to talk a little bit more about everyone, wanted an integrative medicine program in the early two thousands, but Yet here we are in coming into 2020 and we're still working on that goal, right? So this is kind of a testament to how it takes a long time for things to get to where we would sometimes like them to be. Is that correct?

spk_1:   5:46
Oh, it's really true. It's unfortunate because there was a seminal paper published in the 19 nineties about how much that lay public was interested in integrative medicine they call the complementary and alternative medicine. And even before that, they called it unconventional medicine. That was a pejorative term. But the evolution has been Sloan, and the acceptance has been slow, and I think there's really right now a bigger backlash, almost against integrated practices. But I like it it to that glass gasp of a dying institution. So the conventional health care model is really not sustainable because of all of the chronic disease, and the majority of it is lifestyle and diet, and it created. So if you don't fix the diet in the lifestyle underpinning for these very sick, chronically ill patients, you can't treat them. But the more acute care in conventional medicine is really focused on that acute episode where that patient is no longer a person but a statistic, an average and has a certain algorithm of the way you have to treat them so they are treated as individuals, and that's not working for chronic care. So I really see this institutional medicine failing, and that's where we're all coming in as a team, really, and that in a professional team of dietitians and naturopaths and medical doctors and acupuncture, everybody involved. And that's what's going to say this chronically ill population.

spk_0:   7:23
Yeah, absolutely. I talked about my own clients all the time about you can look at things from different aspects. I always use a triad. We can look at the structurally or nutritionally and part emotionally. We can have a conversation about every symptom in at least those buckets. So the other thought I had from that is that we're making some progress. It's a slow progress, right? Sometimes that we don't Sometimes your life cannot wait for the progress and used to be made. You need to take responsibility for yourself and find your own providers, but hopefully this will become more mainstream, and I feel hope from that because Veterans Affairs which is where I started a long, long ago, has its own integrative medicine program now, and they've added that. I mean, it's very simple, like you said mind body medicine, et cetera, But it's a really a step in the right direction when such a large institution like that in such when one that is so far reaching federally and starts to integrate that component.

spk_1:   8:06
And they're what people that are running that Tracy, cadet and been Klingler are absolutely awesome practitioners. They really understand integrative medicine to the fullest in that inner professional team what it takes. So I very excited about their program with the Department of Defense at the

spk_0:   8:25
Well. I love that you know everyone from all the pioneers, which is great. I've been around a long time, eh? So you mentioned a term earlier. Orthomolecular medicine. What's orthomolecular medicine? Well,

spk_1:   8:36
it's interesting. Linus Pauling coined that term back in the seventies, and he really saw that the biochemistry of an individual often has a twist or turn, and what he wanted to do was make that biochemistry straight and heal it and it might take food. It might take high doses of a nutrient a supplement. But whatever that individual needs, that's what is really orthomolecular medicine.

spk_0:   9:03
It's using natural products instead of synthetic

spk_1:   9:05
ISS It ISS Absolutely.

spk_0:   9:08
So you learned about Ivy Vitamin C from your mentor was Dr Reardon. And is that a little bit lucky that he was in the same state or close enough to you to have training? Is that how that

spk_1:   9:18
it was serendipitous? For sure? I'd make great friends with people all around the country, And so I was asking them, Could you train me or do you know how I could get trained? I had done a lot of going to conferences and listening to lectures and those kind of things, but I knew I needed to see patient care in action. And Jonathan, right, who's in Washington state, told me What? Why don't you contact Hugh Reardon? He's in your backyard, so I've never heard of him. So I called him up and he said, Well, come down and have lunch with me and I did, and he offered to train me, and I went back and forth from Kansas City to Wichita over a year. It's time, and it was really eye opening it was a wonderful center. It's still in existence. But it was the best training I could have had.

spk_0:   10:06
Cool. And that was about 20 years ago. And that's when this all started, right? Yeah. It was

spk_1:   10:10
about 25 years ago now, And so after that training, then I was asked to come start the program K you met

spk_0:   10:18
and you got to be in a corner in the O B g Y n Wing.

spk_1:   10:21
Yes. It was really odd. Odd thing initially know it. The dean, it said, Well, we're going to have this program And no one in the medical center wanted to have anything to do with it. In fact, one of my doctor had gone to medical school with my uncle had stopped me in the hallway when I came back to start this program, and he said, Well, what are you doing? And I told them while I'm here to start an integrative medicine program, he looked at me any world around, walked off and never talk to me again on this was a family friend. So anyway, Dr Sterling Williams had just come from New York City. He was chair of O B G Y n and he said, Well, I saw this work at Columbia Presbyterian. They had a women's center. They're integrated women's center. So he said I wanted in my department. So that's how I ended up in obituaries in and there wasn't any space. It was an old hallway, and they put me in a little room that used to have a safe in it. So when they collected money, like in the forties, they put this money in the safe. But they moved the safe out. But it was like this little dingy closet. So that's where I started.

spk_0:   11:34
Fun to laugh about now. Glad you don't have to go back to that place. And the happy ending to this story is it did become a large clinic later on. Under your guidance,

spk_1:   11:41
it did. It was a really a internationally known we had patients from all over the world. And, you know, we had this multi disciplinary team that provided everything from the nutrition to neural feedback Thean fusion clinic, naturopathic medicine. It was really great. It was a wonderful team. Cool.

spk_0:   12:02
So now you're doing research and actually been doing research on I V Vitamin C therapy But I believe were you awarded a grant from N I H recently?

spk_1:   12:11
Well, part of the research has been funded by the N i H. But a project we're working on now is just a pilot study, and it's using intravenous vitamin C and bladder cancer for people that have no option but to go and have their bladders removed. So suspected me, so they're not eligible, really, the traditional chemotherapy. So we're looking to see if Ivy vitamin C might help change the way those cancer cells look when you do biopsies on the specimens. Has the vitamin C changed the appearance of the cancer cells?

spk_0:   12:48
So I want to talk really specifically about what happens in ivy Vitamin C therapy for cancer. What is the mechanism that is happening? And by the way, this is something I feel like when someone says this. I feel like this was popularized by people going to Mexico and having this done for council on. I could be wrong about that, but it's been going on in the U. S. For a while as well. But it's one of the challenging things about integrative medicine is that sometimes this is probably just this way and regular medicine to this clinic over here might do it differently than this clinic over here so we can get into that, too. But talk about first. Why can vitamin C intravenous therapy via ivy were on cancer. What's going on? Well,

spk_1:   13:26
a very good friend of mine, Mark Levin at the N. I. H. Did a interesting study and in the nineties, and he found that when you give ah, vitamin C by mouth, it's a vitamin. It's an antioxidant, but when you put it in the vein, it becomes a drug, and it becomes a pro oxidant. So it actually is making hydrogen peroxide, which the cancer cells are very primitive, and they don't have the mechanism to get rid of this hydrogen peroxide, so they're killed. But the normal cells in the human body can get rid of the hydrogen peroxide so they're not damaged. So it's a very targeted, specific therapy that focuses on killing the cancer cell. If you take it by mouth, no matter what type you take, whether its life is so muldaur, powdered or buffered whatever. If it's aural, it cannot have the same effect. It cannot raise that blood level high enough to form hydrogen peroxide. And that was proof.

spk_0:   14:25
I think this is very interesting because we can't just go put hydrogen peroxide in a vain because, no, it's like excessively corrosive. But it's very interesting. I have some notes from a podcast. You are an interview you did years ago, where it talks about. Basically, the hydrogen peroxide is produced because the vitamin C is reacting with different metals that are just there. Iron, copper, and then it burst from the hydroxide, kills then or reduces the metabolism. The cancer cells correct

spk_1:   14:50
that it's absolutely right on. It takes that transition metal that intermediate step, and that occurs not in the bloodstream, because the body can really quench that. But it happens in that extra cellular space, which I think is a very magical part of our biology, that extra cellular space that fluid and structure around the cells, and that's where it occurs. So those medals in that space react when the vitamin C goes into the extra cellular space, it reacts with the medals, and then you form the hydrogen peroxide, and that could be taken up into the cancer cell or I'm not sure how to say this, but it can Also, sometimes of oxidized form of the vitamin C can be taken up by the cancer cell, but that's very, very small amount. So it's mostly the hydrogen peroxide that's doing the cell kill.

spk_0:   15:41
Uh huh. How did people figure this out? I mean, so maybe it's one thing to learn that vitamin C U was helping. But it's another thing to realize that it's because it's helping Korea hydrogen peroxide to go, then kill cancer cells. How do you see that metabolism, or how do you see that mechanism happening in action?

spk_1:   15:57
It's actually pretty cool, So there's a couple of different ways that it's been done. We have, AH, number colleagues around the country, but our friends in Iowa have done a yeoman's amount of work with E oxidative properties of vitamin C. They've done a lot of what's called the basic science research, and that also has been done by Mark Levin at the N. I H. So they use very specialized forms of imaging and spin resonance and other types of scientific equipment approaches to look at the production of these pro oxidative intermediate steps and then the actual pro oxidant itself.

spk_0:   16:39
So let me ask you another question, because I'm actually kind of fascinated by hydrogen peroxide for other reasons. But I mean to take this otherwise 100 peroxide in the body doesn't create free radicals. It does okay, so that's a little bit more about that. And how is it also killing good cells sometimes?

spk_1:   16:56
Well, I think that's important to First of all, you can't take, let's say, a tablespoon of hydrogen peroxide and swallow it and expect it to get to where the cancer cells are, so the patient should not do that. There are some practitioners who do inject a very dilute concentrations of hydrogen peroxide because of its oxidative properties. But again, the bloodstream doesn't like hydrogen peroxide, and so it has multiple mechanisms to quench that like a catalyst, for example, so what? The best delivery method is the ivy vitamin C and that can be considered. Maybe a pro drug ah pharmaceutical drug that is introduced into the bloodstream, then is picked up by the extra cellular space, and it's the production of that hydrogen peroxide that is causing that free radical burst. Now normal cells, they are not harmed because they have their own mechanism to quench that to get rid of that hydrogen peroxide so they can stamp it out, so to speak. But in that milieu where the cancer cells are, it's very primitive. They don't have that biochemistry. They don't have that machinery to get rid of the hydrogen peroxide so that oxygenated burst can then kill that cancer cell can give a message to the cancer cell to either go into apoptosis or go into necrosis, whatever the mechanism, is it for that particular cancer cells? But that burst of oxidative damage is what's doing it.

spk_0:   18:29
Yeah, and half upto sis. If anyone doesn't know, although there's a lot of people to do that, listen to this. That would be cell death, right? Essentially, yes. So we actually have cancer month recently on the podcast, and Dr Arthur Frankel talked a lot about microbiome and cancer, and you talked a lot. I learned a lot about what cancer is doing the body and how it seems to be adapting and like getting away from old treatments like it's becoming smarter, essentially and which is not good. So is that something that you are seeing it as well. And maybe this is a good segue way into asking. Is there types of cancers in times where I v vitamin C is more helpful than other times? Well,

spk_1:   19:03
what we've seen is that a lot of times the oncologist think that it's an antioxidant, and if they give their chemotherapy or the radiation and then the patient wants to get ivy vitamin C, they think the vitamin C is going to cancel out there therapies, which is not true. We've shown in our translation or research or clinical trials and our basic science that it's actually pro oxidative ifs, we said. So there's synergism, or even an additive effect with the chemotherapy or radiation so they actually work hand in hand when given together. And so we will give the Ivy vitamin C with the chemotherapy. I used it in one of my clinical trials and ovarian cancer as a fluid loading dose. As so, they got the five the vitamin C. That's fluid. Then they got their chemotherapy right after it, and we showed that it was synergistic in that in that scenario. But that being said, what happens is often these oncologists wanna wait till there's no other choices. They've done everything. They put the patient in hospice and oh, I guess it's okay. Now you get the I V vitamin C. I think vitamin C doesn't work that way. Christa at what it does is it needs a longer time course, because it's doing things rather slowly. So if you start early in the care of a patient, you're going to have a better chance of showing in effect. So we start the I V vitamin C, and it's the commitment. It's several times a week, at least in an active cancer patient, and you're doing it with the radiation and or the chemotherapy. But you're staying on a schedule with the Ivy vitamin C, and then, after several months time, then you re test. Then you can look ATT. You know your CT pat, or are other imaging or tumor markers whatever. And then you make the decision whether it's going to be helpful or not, so we never just give it haphazardly and then test immediately. It's more of a long term intervention.

spk_0:   21:03
I think that's a good point to make, because that is actually a good analogy for most natural medicine. You might take it a higher dose and for a longer time, it seems, you know, foreign to be to have an effect than something Some drugs may work quickly at a lowered. I mean, if I just use if I compare maybe herbs to antibiotics or something like that, right, you're using usually a higher dose for a little longer time, whereas maybe now if I could take for five days. And so anyway, it just kind of reminds me a little bit of that, and that may not be a great analogy, but, you know, it's good to have realistic expectations. So that's right. What I hear you saying is not good. Vitamin C therapy doesn't work very well when we're already in hospice or when cancer's progressed very, very far to this, where often people become in a desperation state and insert to do a little bit of everything works better, and you can start it sooner. Is there types of cancer that it works better for?

spk_1:   21:52
Well, we do see benefit in a large number of cancers. It might be easier just to tell you that we don't often find a huge benefit in an advanced prostate cancer patient, and I think that prostate cancer is a little bit different. It doesn't have that same dependence on sugar glucose, like other tumors, that Warburg Effect and the clock Collis iss that prostate cancer seems to be more dependent on fat for its energy. So I think it's a little bit different. I don't want to get too far field in the biochemistry, but so prostate is one that we haven't really seen a huge amount of success in, although we do treat prostate cancer patients and our trials have been largely in ovarian cancer, and now our bladder cancer and prostate cancer. So those are in the trials and the research projects those air, the ones we focused on only because they're often the types of cancer. So don't get treated very well, conventionally. So then the oncologists are more comfortable with us partnering with us in these cancers.

spk_0:   22:57
Uh huh. They have to remove these organs essentially right? Yeah, the alternative.

spk_1:   23:03
Okay, if they're able to it maybe too far gone. You know, they may be staged for which is, you know, pretty typical for prostate and for ovarian. Unfortunately, so those patients, they're OK with this, starting with the I V vitamin C with the chemotherapy or radiation.

spk_0:   23:20
I know you don't want to get into this but wanted to make sure you mention this kind of you said it's the Warburg effect that other cancers, like two feet on different types of versus prostate, if you don't.

spk_1:   23:31
Most cancer cells are very primitive. Their whole goal is just to make replicas of themselves. They don't really wanna build or grow in the traditional type of a silk way that it does. There only focused on increasing their numbers and spreading. And so they've turned off a lot of their machinery and to grow and to build. They do that through what's called aerobic like Collis Iss, and it's the Warburg effect. I got it. I think I may have said that wrong. It may be an aerobic like Hollis, but no, it's not. It's a robe because they do have oxygen in their milieu, but they aren't able to use the regular pathways to produce a teepee, so they've got a more primitive way of producing that energy to replicate themselves, and they use a lot of sugar. So that's one of The first things we do it with our cancer patients is get them on a Whole foods diet with very limited sugar. Almost none. And most of the sugar that we count is sugar comes from whole foods, like some fruits.

spk_0:   24:36
Well, thank you for mentioning that, because there's a lot of information out there that's like that. And sometimes people say, Well, show me the science that showed me the studies or there was

spk_1:   24:44
even an article in the Journal of Science a few years back. I can't tell you exactly what year it was, but they talked about cancer in the Warburg effect.

spk_0:   24:54
Cool, Great. That's a good place if someone wants to go look a little bit. Okay, So let's talk about what's going on with the I V therapy a little bit more. So you mentioned that sometimes you give it as a loading or fluid load before the chemotherapy, so literally next to each other. But the dose scene is very interesting, and it's given over a few hours typically, so can you tell us about that?

spk_1:   25:12
Yes, the dose itself is generally high, particularly in Stage four cancer, and it could be anywhere from 50 grams, not milligrams grams to 100 grams, and that has to be put in a carrier fluid. That is about 1000 ml bag. So it's a big bag of fluid with a large dose of vitamin C in it, and we generally give that Let's say it's 50 grams in the bag. So we give that about, ah, half a gram a minute. So a 50 gram bag will take about 100 minutes, so you double the amount. We don't like to run it in too quickly because we've done a pharma co kinetic study, which were just in the process of writing up. But if you do ah, very rapid infusion. It spikes up really high, the vitamin C in the plasma, and it falls off really fast. So what we want to do is give it at a pretty consistent rate so that its infusing in the vein and getting into that extra cellular space

spk_0:   26:13
give it a chance to do some work. Don't just don't yes,

spk_1:   26:16
that's right. And people are, you know, big fat hurry. They wanna get in there and get out. So but it's your job. We tell that to people all the time. When you have cancer, that's your job, to take care of yourself and to get your therapies and be supported by family and friends and allow that those people to come around you and take care of you. That's

spk_0:   26:38
a really great I love that point. That's wonderful. So just as a note, 1500 grams is a lot, a lot, a lot of people if you go by vitamin C on the shelf, which we have previously said not similar whatsoever. But what people usually would take orally is maybe one gram so or 1000 eso very. I'm just demonstrating the difference. There is a very large change, so that brings me to another point and love to talk about some of the success stories and what you kind of see coming from this. But I think this is a good point to talk about. What about probably the biggest problem with this is that this isn't something everyone has access to write. You have to be near a place where you can get this done a few times a week if you have this kind of cancer. But there are a lot of places in different. It's so funny to talk to you from all over the country because we've talked to certain people in certain states. They're over here doing an infusion therapies and all kinds of things because that's popular there. And then over here in the Midwest, where I love not so popular typically, which is why Kansas is sort of an interesting place because it's a pocket of integrative stuff, kind of among the Midwest. So these pop up clinics, How does a person No. I mean, this is the challenge, right? And this is the challenge with maybe complementary and alternative therapies. In general, quality is not consistent. So tell us a little bit about that. Like, where do you see? Well, I

spk_1:   27:47
have concerns about thes pop up clinics and often, though, advertise themselves as hangover clinics or fluid clinics, whatever but generally the amount of vitamin C that they give us very, very low, maybe a gram in the vein. So again, not very much, and certainly not as much as 50 grams or above. Also, there are some dangers in getting I v vitamin C. If you don't do the testing beforehand and what I mean by that is you have to check what's called the G six p d. Enzymes. So it's a blood test G six p d. And if that number is in a normal range, you're safe to get it. But if that number is in the low range, which is very common around the Mediterranean area and in an African descent, if you have a low G six p d. And you get the I V vitamin C, you're going to find that the red blood cells actually break apart and you get Hamal Assis is what it's called and some patients I've heard of and know about a Nadhim our clinic because we always test but have heard about from other clinics. The patients actually begin urinating bright red blood because there were red blood cells, a broken tail and one woman actually lost a significant amount of blood and needed to go to the hospital, be transfused. So you have to go to a place that checks G six p. D. That's first and foremost and then secondly, some people may have aqsa late kidney stones, and if you give I v vitamin C and they have a history of oxy, late kidney stones and those air active. If they have stones and their kidney. At the time, you could actually precipitate more kidney stones because of the pathway of vitamin C. And it's breakdown blah, blah, blah. So that's the other thing that you have to be cautious about. So it has to be done at a place where they know what they're

spk_0:   29:39
doing. Yeah, which is the challenge. So challenge. What about Bluetooth ion added to vitamin C? Like what about people are doing a cocktail? Uh,

spk_1:   29:47
that's an interesting question because glued a thigh. Oh, there's nothing like vitamin C in the natural product world in that when you give it in high enough doses, it becomes a pro oxidant. But glued if I own, no matter how high, the doses does not seem to become a pro oxidant. So you've got a bag of solution that has a pro oxidant potential, and you're putting in an anti oxidant in it. Those two things are fighting, so to speak, so we never gave glued. If I own with vitamin C. If someone needed glued. If I own, let's say they had really a significant reaction to the chemo therapy with neuropathy, numbness and tingling of hands and feet, loss of sensation with. Then we might give them glued if I own intravenously but away from apart from the intravenous vitamin C. So that would be another day that they come to the clinic.

spk_0:   30:43
Okay, I wanna talk about the science because even though there's a lot of health professionals listening, in case you're not so antioxidants fight free radicals. Free radicals are basically Adam's without. So if you go back to sixth grade science, Adam's without a full electron. She'll remember that circles around there and should be full and then some are not. Sometimes we're missing those that's a free radical, and the free radical goes through the cells or so goes to the body in transit, rip off electrons off the other cells and caused all this damage. And it's one and it is. A thing like that just happens. And so it's what's causing aging and wrinkles and cancer. You know, when you have so many basically like not good cells and so antioxidants, which are found in fruits and vegetables, right? Vitamin C, vitamin e et cetera. I mean, in all of their colorful thing. Many other things as well. Healthy fats, etcetera, antioxidants. Put those electrons back on. The cells are back on the Adam's essentially, and I hope I'm saying this like good enough. Put it back on and make it not for radical essential anymore. You can correct me on any of that if you want, but what is it? Pro oxidant? That's a word that's not used often.

spk_1:   31:42
No, but if you think about chemotherapy, for example, that's, ah, pro oxygenated therapy. It goes in, and it is. Creating a lot in itself is something that is ripping off more electrons. I think that was a beautiful, very well put by the way. But the chemotherapy goes in there, and it causes that damage to by ripping off more more electrons and damaging the cells. But it does it to all the cells, the healthy cells and the abnormal cells, whereas the vitamin C when it acts as that pro oxidant going in and causing that burst of damaging, ripping off the electrons. As you said, it does it on Lee at with the cancer cell and the healthy cells or bar, able to say, Well, I've got this machinery to turn this around to turn that off. To get rid of those damaging chemicals.

spk_0:   32:36
I would mention that I didn't really even understand antioxidants and how they were working on free radicals until I was a double major in journalism and nutrition, and I didn't even understand that time. One of my jobs one year was to interview all the researchers at the university, which basically was my favorite job ever. Which is why has my favorite ever I'm just a cure. I just like learning and synergize ing the information. And so the cancer researcher kind of did a better explanation. And so I don't know if my explanations that great, but the thing that matters knows is that the idea clicks in someone's brain, right? So, yes, but it makes sense. So let's say the people listening to this do not have cancer is their use for ivy vitamin C like, what are the health benefits of I V, vitamin C and someone who is not a cancer patient? You take vitamin C,

spk_1:   33:21
and that's a really interesting question. I think Ivy vitamin C, at much lower doses than we use for cancer, is a tonic, so to speak. It's a therapeutic support, too many body systems. First of all, one thing we know even at the high doses and we showed this in one of our research projects, is that it causes what we call the feelgood effect. There's another project we were involved in that hasn't been published yet. But that was in diabetics. And it showed that when the blood sugars out of control, the diabetics get depressed, and we found out that they're not pulling in the vitamin C across that blood brain barrier. So the glucose is fighting with the vitamin C. But when the vitamin C is able to be forced into across the blood brain barrier through a number of mechanisms, which I'm not gonna get into, But we went that vitamin C in the brain. The brain loves vitamin C, and when it's in the brain, you feel good. You don't have that depression, so feelgood effect. It also is our little second brain. The adrenal glands. Vitamin C is pumped into the adrenal glands against the concentration Grady int, so the adrenal glands need that vitamin C as well. And when your adrenal glands are working well. You feel really good. Also, it can act as an anti viral and anti bacterial, and this is Linus Pauling advocated for this, with Orel dozing. But it's even more effective with Ivy Joe sing. Let's say the common cold. If you're in the early early stages of developing the cold, for example, you can get an I V vitamin C, and it helps reduce the severity of it and reduce the length of the infection. So it has been a bit there. So mononucleosis, for example, whether whatever viruses it's related to. But we see college students that have mononucleosis, and they're told that's going to take them a month to get better. We take those patients and they get 25 grams, not even a massive dose 25 grams of vitamin C on three successive day. So the first day the student comes in there sleeping in the chair and getting their vitamin C. The next day, they brought their phone with them, and they're playing a video game the third day they have their backpack with them and they're doing their homework, so it really has a significant effect and turning something around that student probably would have lost a semester at school. So and I think it's just a good all around, as I said, Tonic,

spk_0:   35:50
Yeah, it's good for a lot of things. I'm gonna summaries that a little bit. Since the brain loves vitamin C, it's good for any mood condition or a stressed person, because adrenals get really taxed when stress is going on. And then viruses and bacteria further stress those adrenal glands. And so I think I feel that we hear vitamin C so frequently in that case, right, and we always talk about vitamin C for immune health. And so do you run riff on what's going on there a little bit. But, you know, we didn't do a good job of really mentioning. I asked you about Bluetooth Ryan, but I didn't explain for everyone else. The good Earth ion, I think, is like the boss at the liver. It's like this master antioxidant, but you talked about it implicated in neuropathy, which is tingling in the hands and feet, and I don't think about good Afyon with neuropathy. Do you want to say anything else about Bluetooth? I am just an antioxidant that is recycled from vitamin C a little bit and other places and other amino acids. Well,

spk_1:   36:35
I do want to mention that what I'm going to tell you about his anecdotal It's not something I've researched, but we found that some patients that have chronic lung disease if we nebulizer, glued if I own and so they're breathing this mist of glue defying into their lungs, they have improvement in lung function, not everybody. And that could go for a chronic obstructive pulmonary disease or an asthma or a fi Braddock lung disease. But again, that's not for everyone, but it is helpful in a chronic lung. So again, just squelching or stemming that oxidative burst. So it's a wonderful as you said, Master Antioxidant. I do love it in the liver. It's a wonderful antioxidant in the liver.

spk_0:   37:19
And actually, now that you said that, I think I have seen some information or research around glorify on for long our cardiovascular conditions. So anyway, maybe not. I don't know. I'm guessing that came out of somewhere. You used it, used it because he had seen, even if you hadn't done your own research on it, I'm guessing you guys tried it because it had worked for other people.

spk_1:   37:36
That's correct. You know, that's the way it is right now on integrative medicine. It's more of an apprentice type model. So someone's done this and it has a record of safety. So you know we'll try it right, which isn't always, You know, there's some people that have gotten in trouble with that, so But I think that's the history of medicine. Generally conventional, integrative, whatever.

spk_0:   38:00
Yeah, so one of the most challenging things about our discussion today is what you're doing is really exciting. But not everyone can get it everywhere. I wonder what your advice is for someone who wants to have this near them, but there isn't, but they're also maybe they feel like a catalyst for change, and they'd like to advocate for having I mean, how does that place go about having a good Ivy or Orthomolecular or Vitamin C infusion program? Well, I

spk_1:   38:22
think that you need to have someone at the helm whose trained and has a good reputation and its willing to do the right thing. Whether that's a medical doctor, an osteopathic doctor or naturopathic doctor. Most states you can practice medicine and open and Ivy Clinic. And so I think the reputation of the person is important. But also look at their credentials. Where did they train? Who did they train with and what type of certifications do they carry? So I think that's important. And then do they look at the person globally? Do you see that patient before you recommend an ivy? What? No matter what it ISS, you've got to see that person know who they are. Do a thorough evaluation, including conventional laboratory analysis and vitamin mineral, good fat levels and, you know, whatever. So you have to know that person really, really well before you launch into any type of a program,

spk_0:   39:18
you know, we didn't get a chat about what are some of the results you've seen using Ivy Vitamin C therapy in cancer. Also, we didn't mention how it reduces the sometimes negative side effects of chemotherapy like nausea. Is that correct?

spk_1:   39:32
That's correct. In our ovarian cancer trial, we showed that wth e lower grade adverse events that are often seen with cancer, and that could be anywhere from depression, nausea, vomiting, loss of appetite, just general aches and pains. How being on a good program with diet, lifestyle and the I V. Vitamin C can really reverse those lower grade findings. Now the higher grade findings, the great fours and fives. Usually you can't once you have those from your chemo therapeutic effects. There's very little you can do to turn those around like the severe neuropathy sze and what chemo brain is a common thing. I don't know if any of your guests have talked about chemo brain, but it's a really side effects from chemotherapy. So once things were pretty advanced, the Ivy vitamin C can't help it, but the early grade complaints the nausea is vomiting, et cetera, can be helped with the I V vitamin C, and then we also have seen significant reduction in tumor burden with the I V vitamin C with or without chemotherapy. I did recently we had a case report in pancreatic cancer. The gentleman was told, essentially to go home and get his affairs in order, but he really wasn't willing to do that. So he sought out Ivy Vitamin C for himself, and I had a pretty remarkable change in the appearance of his liver mets, and he had a lot of liver mets and those disappeared again gradually. Over time, it's not overnight and then reduction of the mass in the head of the pancreas. And what's interesting about this? And I would do want to mention this again. We haven't published this, but it's almost like the tumor begins to encapsulate. It forms a capsule around itself. It shrinks, it becomes fi Bronek, it becomes a scar. And then, over time we actually see calcification occurring in that scarred mass as it becomes more more walled, often scarred down, so to speak. So I've seen this in a number of patients who've been on I V Vitamin C long term. But it was shown in this one case report, and we had images in the case report as well.

spk_0:   41:48
So if people are listening to this and they say, Gosh, I really wish I hear the remarkable work you're doing But they also see that it takes time for all of this to gain traction and become more accepted. What can we do to help improve our elevate? This is a safe therapy to use and cancer and beyond. Is there anything that we all can be supported in doing?

spk_1:   42:05
well, it's all about the patient in my mind. And I think the patients, the grassroots movement of the patients is really important. They've got a voice, a bigger voice than they think they dio. They often feel isolated and alone. But their organizations like Alliance for Natural Health, US A. That is a grassroots movement and all of these voices of people almost a 1,000,000 voices of the lay public can come together and advocate for change. So there are ways to become a member of that movement. You don't have to be a researcher. I think that's the slowest path of all. But I think that the public has a stronger voice, and they believe that they do

spk_0:   42:49
so. Dr. Driscoll, what are you doing now? Now you are often research, and you are supporting other programs. Tell us a little bit about how your work has changed over this last year.

spk_1:   42:57
Well, I'm passionate about education of integrative practitioners of whatever stripe they are, and I feel like that's my mandate for my career. Going forward, we need to have really well trained integrated practitioners and the foundation of integrative health care is nutrition and nutrition is so poorly understood. There's so many myths out there medical myths about nutrition that I feel like as a team we all need to come together. And your work is certainly doing that educating Ah, lot of people, both a healthcare practitioners and the public about good nutrition. So I applaud you for that. So the education is coming through of a number of venues. We have a textbook coming out. We is a Diana Nolan, wonderful dietitian nutritionist in California. Doctor Lee Wagner has her PhD and dietetics and is a registered dietitian. And then myself, we pulled together Oh my gosh, 50 authors, plus to help us ride a textbook called Integrative and Functional Medicine, Nutrition, Therapy, Principles and Practices. It's in the process of being published by Springer as we speak, so it should be out in January. But it's really the true focus of the underpinning of integrative care is the amalgamation of these authors, and they're not just dietitians there. Tie Titian's and natural paths and medical doctors and osteopaths and acupuncture is so you know, we're practicing here. What we preach is bringing this group together, so that's one way is through the textbook the second way is through spreading the certificate programs broadly. Jefferson Medical just recently initiated a program, but there's programs all over the country now of different types of integrative practitioners trying to educate other health care providers. So those air growing and I'd like to be part of that as well and then a continuing scholarly riding, you know, also, I think educating the way you are podcasting is so important. It's just reaching people where they are and they can listen and take away what they want.

spk_0:   45:11
Yeah, I love this platform because we have the time in the ability and to talk deep about a topic like this that otherwise sometimes people are not. And we're using busy times, right. People usually use this when they're doing the dishes or driving to work or something like that. So we're using those moments and just kind of our goal with this podcast is just kind of inspire and create these ah ha moments on like, Oh, I did not even know that you could do that. And while what great information around, And that's kind of the goal here. So thank you for all your work. I think you can add to your list doing some apprenticeship or some type of training for Ivy vitamin C therapy in order to grow it farther. Hopefully, maybe that's already in the works. So, Dr Driscoll, working people find you. I believe you have a website now, and I think we will publish this episode once the book is out so we can link to it in the show notes. I

spk_1:   45:54
think the book is going to be critical for a lot of people. We hope that even policymakers will look at this book to develop really sustainable healthcare policies for America. But also I have a website, and it's the heart and soul of healing. So I'm going to have the blog's and information. They're a swell. So I think that's the best way to bind me.

spk_0:   46:17
Yeah, that's real confined here, so we'll have the book linked in the show notes when it comes out because this will come out around that time, we'll try to sink that up. Thank you so much for coming on today. And for all your diligent work, this is that slow work to kind of change the world on eso. We really appreciate all your efforts and thank you so much for schooling us on. Really? The mechanisms and how vitamin C intravenous therapy can be done in the United States safely.

spk_1:   46:41
Oh, you're a wonderful

spk_0:   46:42
host. Thank you. One of the best gift you could give us at the less stress life is your feedback. We are paid in podcast reviews. If you enjoy this or any other episode, please leave us a review in the iTunes store or from your podcast app. Just search for less dressed life as if you're not already subscribed. Click on the banana face image scroll to the bottom where it shows the text of other reviews and write a review while you're there. Hey, make sure you hit. Subscribe for Android or stitcher users. You gotta go to the desktop site and search for less dress life and then scroll down to leave a review. Stitcher doesn't load Apple reviews on their site, so if you want, you can leave a review in both places. Your feedback means a lot to the success of the show. Thanks so much for taking the time to do that. You rock

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Vitamin C mechanism on killing the cancer cells
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The Warburg effect
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Health benefits of IV Vitamin C
Advice on getting an IV Vitamin C program
Reduced side effects on chemotherapy cancer patient due to IV Vitamin C