Less Stressed Life: Helping You Heal Yourself

#104 Addressing skin rashes like eczema in babies and young children with Jennifer Caryn Brand, MS, CNS

March 25, 2020 Christa Biegler
Less Stressed Life: Helping You Heal Yourself
#104 Addressing skin rashes like eczema in babies and young children with Jennifer Caryn Brand, MS, CNS
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Skin rashes in kiddos can be SO FRUSTRATING. There’s nothing worse than nothing being able to take your child’s pain away, especially when they can’t communicate their itches. 

In this week's episode of the Less Stressed Life Podcast, Dr. Jennifer Caryn Brand, clinical nutritionist, and I chat about underlying causes of eczema in children specifically so we can beat child skin rashes. 

Here are some of the key takeaways:

  • [09:43] Differences in an infant gut microbiome compared to adults
  • [22:38] Die-off symptoms of skin rashes
  • [36:23] Cautions on using creams, oils, etc on skin
  • [40:13] How long will it take to resolve skin rashes?

Mentioned in this episode:


To help point you in the right direction and to give you some immediate action steps to take, get Dr. Brand's FREE Guide To Beat Your Little One’s Eczema.

Jennifer Brand is an integrative and clinical nutritionist with a Master's degree in public health, a Master's degree in nutrition, and she’s a Certified Nutrition Specialist. Jennifer specializes in childhood skin rashes (eczema, psoriasis, tinea versicolor, hives, acne, vitiligo, and others), food allergies and sensitivities, and gut problems. Jennifer’s own struggle with gut problems and disordered eating, and a family history of autoimmune conditions including her father’s battle with psoriasis turned psoriatic arthritis, her brother’s diagnosis of psoriasis, and her mother’s of vitiligo, left her frustrated with traditional options. 

This is the second episode of SKIN-month and I'm happy to share with you my book The Eczema Relief Diet & Cookbook coming out next month (April 14th is the official ship date) but it's available for pre-order on Amazon.


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spk_0:   0:00
It's really important if you are a nursing mom and your little one has Exuma or whatever health conditions they have that we work through you Thio benefit the little one. Welcome to the less stressed life podcast, where our only priority is providing those ah ha moments toe up level your life, health and happiness. Your

spk_1:   0:21
host Integrative Dietitian nutritionist Krista Bigler helps health conscious women reduce the stress and confusion around food, fatigue, digestive and skin issues at less stress. Nutrition dot com Now onto the show All right Today on the less stress life, we have a fun sun topic for us. We're gonna talk about kids and Exam A, which is a brown one and five are one in 10. So I guarantee you know someone that you can share this episode with and turns out a lot of people. Joan, talk about this. I think it's gonna be great episode. So I got Jennifer Brandt here, who's an integrative and clinical nutritionist with a master's degree in public health and nutrition, and she's a certified nutrition specialist. She specializes in childhood skin rashes that include examine psoriasis, taenia versa, color hives, acne Patil ago and others food allergies and sensitivities and got issues. Jennifer's own struggle with gut problems and disordered eating. And a family history of autoimmune conditions, including in her bothers battle with psoriasis that turned into story. Attic arthritis, her brother's diagnosis of psoriasis. And her mother's of Attila Co. Which is really like a crazy amount of skin stuff for Jennifer. Do not have skins have really left her frustrated with conventional medicine, so she knows firsthand that a different approach is needed. So I'm excited to jump in. Welcome, Jennifer,

spk_0:   1:37
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

spk_1:   1:40
And so, Jennifer, sometimes people ask me, Well, how do you find these people? And so Jennifer is a friend of a friend. And so you might remember Jen Fuego. She is the host of the Healthy Skin Show. She went to school with Jennifer, and I mean, that's kind of the story. And then Jennifer and I were just talking off air how we both got started working with kids with skin issues, which is very accidental. I mean, you were just asked Theo, take it if you would take them, and I forgot to ask if you have Children of your own.

spk_0:   2:05
I do not actually have Children of my own, which I think is one of the primary reasons why I enjoy working with this population so much.

spk_1:   2:13
That's funny, because I feel like having Children sometimes allows me to say, like Hey, with my own kids, this works for them and so I just I love it. I think it's great. So let me set the stage a little bit. I mentioned this before, but there's a huge need for people to work with Children in skin issues, and there's a giant gap in it being done. And maybe there's a reason for that because it's not necessarily sometimes it's very straightforward. Sometimes it is not very simple. It just depends on the person. And I love that. Jennifer really loves to work with kids, too, and under and I had discovered through trial and experiment that I like kids five and under. And why do we feel like that? Because it's easier to change and manipulate things when they don't know different right and we can kind of create like, and that's sort of when the microbiome gets established now for me. Once you over five years. Like a big opinion. We're going to do things until kind of adulthood. So it's really interesting. So something that I see ah lot that Jen and I are gonna dig into today and that she sees all the time as well is kind of how the family health and history is playing into, like, why are some kids getting exam? And some kids are not right? What are the factors there, whether they're in the research or not, Because this is challenging. For one. I mean, pain for research is one thing, but ethical, like ethical research. I mean, you have to have East research approved, so it's not really very doable tohave research on some of the stuff we're gonna talk about. What? We're definitely gonna talk about clinical experience. So I'll shut up and let Jennifer talk. Jennifer hell us a little bit about kind of how you got into skin issues and how you picked how you decided that you loved working with two and under and anything you wanna say about that. And then we'll get into some of the nitty gritty.

spk_0:   3:46
Sure. Thank you. Well, as you mentioned, I just have always been fascinated with everything skin related, just from two growing up and whatnot. And then, like you mentioned, my father was diagnosed with psoriasis at age six. It turned into story attic arthritis by the time he was in his thirties, and now he's in the seventies. He's always taken a conventional medicine approach, and I have just watched him continue to deteriorate over the years in which, of course, is heartbreaking. And it really points to me how challenging it can be like you were mentioning. Sometimes it's easier with little ones to implement interventions that are gonna help them feel better. Whereas as adults, we are so deeply rooted in our habits, whether that's nutrition, lifestyle, what have you that it makes it really challenging to change. So my father's struggle and battle with psoriatic arthritis as well. My mom has a little ego, and then my brother has psoriasis, so that always created really a need for me to help others that are struggling with these types of conditions. And then when I started my career as a clinical nutritionist, one of the first connections I made was with a local E n T office I'm based in Los Angeles, and I started talking Thio kids and their families about you know what to eat after Todd Select to me. And so, you know, we're talking about these things with families. I started working with Children, which really prompted me to start doing more research into how to apply functional medicine approaches to little ones. And then Jennifer Fuego, who you mentioned a colleague of both of ours, focuses on skin health. And she does not see Children. So she had asked me at one point if I felt comfortable seeing the Children. But she was getting a lot of requests for that. And I said Absolutely so I started working with little ones and their families and helping them resolve imbalances that are causing their skin rashes as well. Of course, is, you know, Krista, you work with a lot of skin issues as well, but these are often connected with allergies and got problems. And so the base of my client population are little ones, and then, over time as well, they seem to be getting younger and younger. And so I started seeing a lot of little ones under two years old and that really starts to beg the question, especially when these little ones are 100% breast fed. What is happening, like what is getting in that is causing the problem? And then this is where we start to take a deeper look at Mom, and by no means Mom. Is this your fault? So that's not where we're going with this. But what's important to understand what I'm finding and again like you mentioned as well, there isn't a lot of research there, not a lot of scientific published papers on this type of information. But as I'm digging to find out what's going on under the surface, you know, I start to find out that Mom has her own skin concerns her own gut concerns, has auto immunity, and these things have been left to fester over the years. And so it's absolutely the case that's something happening with Mom could be affecting baby. And so for these little ones that are less than two years old, you know, we look at mom and baby, but often I find that I'm focused more on Mom and again, especially if the case is that the little one is mostly or 100% breast fed.

spk_1:   6:52
I love that and I love when someone comes in and I say I would like to address my own health as well. Like, I know I don't let my child have eggs, Emma, but I think that I've got some stuff going on as well, and I would like to address that. And I'm like, Jackpot. That is exactly the opinion and the mentality that's going to elevate you to the next level. And I haven't gotten to do as much side by side testing to, like, prove this. However, in the ones that I have done, where have you had a baby or child do some testing? And then if I get to do the parents what I have seen so far is significant. There's a lot of significant stuff going on with the Microbiome. Sometimes the parents have more than the child. Sometimes the child, you'd be amazed at what's going on in your child's microbiome kind of transient Lee. Even which some stuff can come in and set up shop for a little bit like set up a tent and then move on because I have a strong immune system some people don't have a strong. I mean, like some Children, they're not starting off with a very strong immune system or something attacks it or something. Assault. That is probably a better word, cause there's so many things that can happen, and so it could get a little suppressed and hopefully come back. But what I've seen is absolutely what you say. And two years ago, I went to a conference. I've had the opportunity to see two lectures on this, and the 1st 1 went to a big kind of conventional nutrition conference. And I was really excited to see a topic about, like, microbiome of breast milk essentially. But what I took away from that was Oh, we're just starting the research in this area. We see that we're sharing microbiome, and we basically have, like, not much to report. And they were doing it in, like internationally. So naughty ran in the U. S. And I'm like, Thanks, that tells me, like not really much, but, uh, you know, I wish I've asked so great went to a great microbiome conference this fall in there, some super nerds there. In fact, some of their their lectures are sprinkled in right around this one airing and, you know, I got a similar answer. But if we were just to speak from clinical experience, I think we'd see that like we share Microbiome and it is not Mom's fault. But guess what I mean, we think that it's likely cause people bring this up all the time. They're like, Hey, could my child beginning x y Z thinks through breast milk, Maybe, maybe maybe through inoculation at birth, maybe from what happened after birth. For example, when my second child was born, I was positive for Group B strep and I was on 30 hours of antibiotics because my Children never want to come out. And I got to have a awesome rash for a month afterwards, and she definitely had a lot of Microbiome issues that presented as behavior stuff and what not? And so my point is that alone, when your inoculation is kind of through the birth canal, if you've been on that many hours of antibiotics, you've gone hadn't cleared out all the good flora regard lessons. You're not really getting good inoculation. So sorry to talk so much fun, but I just wanted to share just like these air personal experiences or client experiences. They're not on the research, but, yeah, Mom's health is affecting baby's health. And I mean, you would know that so well, when you see when two and under Exactly. We said like they can't be doing it. You know that there's outside things that are going on.

spk_0:   9:40
Absolutely. And I think those were such great points. And when we're talking about the gut Microbiome, this is research. 70 to 80% of your immune system is located in your gut microbiome. So when you have imbalances in there, it absolutely can affect the rest of your immune system. And then, of course, when we're talking about exam as well as allergies, you know, these are conditions that are sort of that immune system in haywire type thing. So gut is absolutely involved, you know, in infants during the first few weeks after life, they have a leak, your gut, and then it starts to become more normalized and less leaky, assuming that something isn't triggering inflammation in there to keep it leaky. And then, of course, when we're talking about breast milk, yes, there actually anti endo toxin antibodies in breast milk, and so it could be really helpful to build the little one's gut microbiome. But if Mom has something so breast milk can be really protective against a lot of different endo toxins. It's protected against Sita, for example. But things like each pylori can get through toxins from other bugs can get through. And you know, of course, any food type triggers or allergy type triggers can also potentially get through the breast milk into the gut of the little one. When these little ones gut microbiome, so a little one gut microbiome isn't mature until about 2 to 3 years of age. And so during that time, this is when breast feeding is, ah, prevalent and when we want to be breast feeding, so lots of things can get in there that shouldn't be getting in there during this time. And something else that I find really interesting about. The infant gut microbiome is that, and there isn't a lot of research on this, but they have higher relative abundance before age two or three. So when you're looking at a stool test like what you're seeing, you have to know how to interpret this so like higher relative abundance, We might see something similar in an adult or somebody you know, over 2 to 3 years of age. And think of that as a gut to spy. Oh, Cece, where in a little one that actually could be normal. And so what? We're looking for more so in stool testing for these really little ones. Less than two years of age are things that aren't supposed to be in there. Certainly not in high levels like overgrowth of H. Pylori or parasites, for example. And then we can also take a look and see how the gut immune system is functioning if they're gluten antibodies in their how digestion is working. So we do look at the stool test a little bit differently for little ones, compared thio a little bit older ones and older ones. But yeah, it is so fascinating. Just the impact that I'm learning just like you, right? You work with a family. So, you know, I might be working with the child, and then the mom comes on board as well, and we do still testing on both. And, you know, often I do see similar like if mom, He has hpai, Laurie. The little one might have. H pylori is really common to see that. And that's the kind of thing that I'm looking for. And so then when we are looking to address this in the little one, we've got to address it in Mom, especially the little one is breast fed. And so this is really interesting a case that I have I'm actually just finishing up working with this family. So they had two little ones. One was a girl. She was about four years old and the little one was still nursing. Both had Exuma the little girl, Of course, you know, on her own protocol don't need to worry about mom there too much. And we got great results really quickly, which is actually kind of unusual. We expect this to take six months to a year, sometimes longer. On occasion, I see things get better really fast. So this one happened, Get better really quickly. However, the little one that was still nursing mom had a lot of stuff going on, so she was on a protocol. She was working with another practitioner. Actually, she was on a very aggressive protocol And so I just kind of washed what was happening. So we did not put the little one on his own protocol. We had Mom on her protocol, watched what was happening in the little one. Sure enough, as she started implementing, like the antimicrobials and things like that, he started to have die off symptoms. So it's really important. If you are a nursing mom and your little one has Exuma or whatever health conditions they have that we work through, you Thio benefit the little one. And then, of course, where Chris, we're already jumping to our scientific like we're talking about the stool tests on the protocols and such. But we do always want to start with a food based approach, and and I always do tend to jump in when we're having conversations like this to the stool tests on the protocols on the supplements. Because by the time people come to me, they've already tried things like this, you know, they've already tried diet. I know you do a lot of work in this area. They've tried taking everything out of the diet and

spk_1:   14:10
bell working this area, right, Like you do, right? Yes. Yeah, like restricting everything is not your answer

spk_0:   14:16
now. It's not the root cause of the problem. And I always told people, It's like, Okay if you've removed the common triggers for skin rashes, which are gluten. You processed foods, of course. But so what? Processed foods added sugar gluten? Dairy eggs For a lot of people. If you remove those common things and nothing is changing, that's when you need to take a deeper look. Um, and that's when we start to look at what's happening in the gut.

spk_1:   14:38
And even if those things are irritants, you can still look at what's happening in the gut. You know, there's definitely a possibility there, because one of the possible factors here is like these might be difficult for that system. Did I just Why is it the age is it digestive inadequacies? Which is a lot story of several comments. Hopefully, I'll remember them first is I bet working with two and under could be challenging sometimes because stool consistency is going to change a lot well, especially one and underwrite my favorite of like wrench and I'm being very facetious here is teaching because it will change. You will change but on that No, I also really like when kids have when parents noticed that bowel movements. Or there's some kind of digestive something along with the X amount, because then it's like, Great, I don't have to tell you that we need a look inside to see what's going on outside, so I think that is a great point. Um, next you mentioned that pylori can be kind of a side note. I'm super obsessed with pylori and how it like hides and then presents later in its prevalence of 30% in the United States, 70% in Mexico Think 30% in Canada as well. I'm just really fascinated by the epidemiology of pylori. Have you found research showing that these toxins are transmitted via breast milk or are you going by clinically what you see in testing?

spk_0:   15:52
I have seen research, and I can tell you let me scroll and find the paper. If I had noted that awesome. Love it. Yeah, I might have to get back you on that one. But yes, I have seen research papers that show, and it varies because I in looking for this information, I do see a lot of papers that say its protective against H. Pylori. This one study it was done in a different country, and it showed that it was at the possibility that the H. Pylori was being transferred through breast milk Candida so yeast could be transferred as well, whereas C diff, for example, breast milk is protective against CDF, and then it isn't really clear. And I haven't been able to find the research that shows that other types of toxins could get through for I did find some research. For example, parasites are too large to get through that the mammary blood barrier to get into the breast milk. But toxins from them can, additionally, any toxins that Mom might be harboring. So you know, as we know, toxins hideout in fat tissue and so when we are producing milk. So when we are nursing, the energy stores for that are liberated from fat tissue in the body. So these toxins that might be harbored in mom's body can get into the milk as well and be transferred to baby.

spk_1:   17:07
Speaking of toxins, all of these pathogens let off their own toxins typically, and you mentioned a word earlier. I want to give some definition to you. Mentioned anti endo toxin antibodies, essentially an endo toxin. It's a thing that compromises got barrier and can go up when your body is insulted by something. Is there a way you want to say that differently? Like Endor toxins increase when you eat a bunch of crap When you've got certain pathogens, we know that from research. And so breast milk is protective of the gut assault on parallel. Really love the word assault today. Assault? Yeah, the assaults that happened.

spk_0:   17:37
Yeah, yeah. So Endo toxemia. So endo toxins like you mentioned. It's also Lippo. Polly Sacha rides those LPs is that maybe people are more familiar with that. So what happens is bacteria are no bugs in our gut. Good, bad. What have you released? Toxins. And when we have got hyper permeability, which can happen when we have stuff going on in the gut because it creates an environment of inflammation. So the lining of the gut becomes permeable. Those toxins, those endo toxins can escape into the bloodstream. Then that causes stomach inflammation, which is inflammation throughout the body, and from there that triggers immune responses. And so we can end up. This is where, like a topic type conditions come from so, you know, as my allergies eczema. So additionally, he always focused on wiki gut and food sensitivities, which this is one of the reasons why food is not the root cause of the problem. It's because of that got hyper permeability that these food particles are leaking into the bloodstream as well. So and when we eat like you mentioned eating alone, just digestion in general creates more die off of bugs, which means more endo toxemia in particular high fat diets. And there's research on this. So high fat diets increase Ando toxemia. And so when we have leaky gut, this could be happening. And I did just find that H. Pylori article. So yeah, so it's titled Breastfeeding and Helicobacter pylori infection in early childhood. A continuing dilemma. So this was published in the Iranian Journal of Pediatrics in 2014. So yeah, so the conclusion here we concluded a study to evaluate the effects of breast feeding on h. Pylori. There conflicting results. However, it appears that it is possible for hpai Laurie Thio get into the breast. Milk could be transferred to the little one. Yeah,

spk_1:   19:19
yeah, right. And typical to research. We don't have enough yet. And but we think it's disposable, right?

spk_0:   19:25
But you have got to

spk_1:   19:26
start somewhere, right? So you and it's not easy. Sometimes we like to complain that they're not of research, but, like I am working on possibly doing some research with a colleague right now, and it's sort of like, Oh, wait, there's there's a lot of expense here So anyway, so we were talking about food and a little bit there. And so I think we know everyone knows this, but yes, you do get antigens from food through breast milk as well. But I think what's important and I actually I feel like I spend a lot of time on this when I'm working with families, because guess what. When you have a child for a client, you now have 2 to 3 clients because you have the child, the mom who may have her own emotional whatever from what's going on, right, like there's many reasons for that and maybe death. So I think it's important to talk about the guilt that parents, and especially moms have when their little ones have skin rashes. What would you say about that?

spk_0:   20:17
Yeah, absolutely. And this is really, I think, something important to address, and I can just hear it in Mom's voice and Dad's was I can see it in their faces You know, when we're talking about what's happening and just listen to them go through the laundry list of potential things that they've done wrong. You know, I had a mom that was told by their allergists that she caused their little ones dairy allergy because they restricted it from her diet. The mom was literally told that it was her fault, and all I can say is just I want moms and dads and families to know this, that I have seen babies born C section that our formula fed that have skin rashes. And I see Justus, many vaginally born breast fed babies with skin rashes as well. So great and parents, it's not your fault. I've seen all of these different combinations of factors. And of course, it's beyond frustrating because you feel like you're doing everything right. But your little one is still struggling, and it's not your fault that your little one has skin rashes. There's a deeper root cause and that root cause is something that needs to be explored.

spk_1:   21:16
And if we just kind of shift, no one wants to talk like this when they're sleep deprived, and it kind of sucks in their travels, miserable. But, you know, it's a fire alarm on the outside. So as much as I hated my exam, a journey I can be thankful for, you can be thankful for it when you overcome it. You really hated in the moment, but you can be thankful for it later that about what you experience because really like life isn't easy in so many ways, right? But usually this is challenging. Things we go through have taught us ah lot, and if they haven't quite given their lesson yet, that's okay. So anyway, and and the thing is, you don't have to struggle alone, it's okay to reject if someone says this is your fault, like that's a good time to find a new advocate or a new partner, you know, And that's okay. And that's it isn't your fault. It's just it's how things are. You are not alone when there's 10 to 20% of other Children also going through the same thing. You're actually a very common company. So absolutely So let's talk about what to do about this. So you kind of engine is a little bit in your case Study before is with the mom was being treated by another practitioner, and the child started having their own die of symptoms, which for I'm curious what that looked like. Because for me, that may look like fatigue. Exhaustion. It might look like in a untidy A ll situation. It might look like a different style of rash. It's kind of like a little bit more systemic and just kind of red and blotchy ish. What are some of the die off type symptoms that you might see?

spk_0:   22:38
Yeah. So this little one in particular definitely was more cranky, more moody, asleep had gotten even worse and sleep was already a problem. I think there were some stool changes is well and definitely some more ration iss than they were typically experiencing. So, yeah, I mean, it was kind of right along the lines of what we expect to see you would die off reactions, a worsening of symptoms all around, So yeah, it was a hard time for mom to wash this happening. Yet at the same time, you know, it was a good way to start addressing things in the little one again. I wasn't mom's practitioner, but as this was happening, I did advise her to talk to her practitioner about it, because what we want to do in that case, we really shouldn't be having die off symptoms are common. You know, when we're addressing health concerns, the way that we d'oh and what we need to be doing when those happened is slow down, you know, focus on detoxification, supporting the body's natural detoxification mechanisms and slow down the protocol. And so that's what we need to do in those cases.

spk_1:   23:35
So what would you recommend if let's separate the two groups? What do you think pregnant moms can do with skin rashes in their baby? And what can nursing moms do if they or their baby have skin rashes?

spk_0:   23:48
Okay, so we'll pregnant mom. So if pregnant moms have skin rashes themselves, number one, let's start with those main trigger foods and take those out of their diet. Pregnancy is not a time to start taking different supplements. There are some like a probiotic, for example, is something that somebody who's pregnant can take. It's very case specific, so there might be things that we can do. But, you know, we do need to start with diet and take those primary trigger foods out of the diet we can look at under kindest erupting chemicals, for example, environmental exposures and take a look at making sure that our food is clean. Is organic grass fed free range. What have you of waiting P. B. C's and dioxins that Aaron pesticides? And if you have your own garden, your own lawn. You know, like of Wade pesticides there flame retardants, fighter estrogen's even soy, you know, pesticides again and B p A. So things found in class sticks. Parabens, which is found in so many different personal care products and you know, deodorants and such. So, you know, minimizing toxic exposures and potential trigger toe triggers. Two things I think is really important, you know. Also, we can do a comprehensive digestive soul test on Mom to find out what's happening in the gut. And so we wanted to start with these food based interventions while Mom is pregnant. If we do find imbalances in there, you know, and something Mom can do. Like we're sittin, for example, is a chemical natural compound found in plant foods that is anti oxidant and anti histamine. It's found in broccoli, spinach, kale, apples, blueberries, Cherries. So you know Mom can eat more of these foods as well. There is a study. So this was a study from 2017 and it's titled Update. Can Breast feeding and maternal diet prevent a topic dermatitis? So this study found that a maternal diet that was rich in fruits and vegetables and fish and vitamin D actually was associated with a lower risk of exam and Children. But that could also help for Mom, you know, while you're pregnant. So we want to think, you know, anti inflammatory and making sure we're getting nutrients in that support the body and the way it is supposed to function and including building and repairing healthy skin. And then they're also for foods that have anti microbial properties that can be helpful. So, like, if mom, you know, we find that she does have got to spy Oh, sis, which is, you know, abnormal gut bacteria. Something happening in there and she's pregnant, you know, just eating different herbs and spices like actual herbs and spices. Maybe a little bit of coconut oil, garlic and raw honey could be anti microbial. So increasing intake of foods like that could be helpful is, well,

spk_1:   26:15
yeah, great points. It's really a big list, even when of safe options. So how about

spk_0:   26:20
it really is? How

spk_1:   26:21
about nursing moms? What do you think about nursing moms and what they should do? And then also what supplements, if any, are best for examine and babies?

spk_0:   26:29
Okay, so well, with nursing moms similar, You know, again, we do want to start with the diet, and we can add in those queer, sittin rich foods that are natural anti histamines, an anti inflammatory we can add in those healthful foods. Also anti inflammatory, those anti microbial foods. I'm when nutrition's not enough. Then we really can see what's happening inside mom and again use that comprehensive digestive stool test. And so, as I mentioned the example of the family that I was working with, where the little one got die off from what the mom's protocol was, there is a lot that we can do with a nursing mom and getting her on a protocol because there are certain supplements that are okay for nursing and for really little ones. So we can use those for Mom and for the little one. And it's really case by case. I really don't have, like, OK, at this age, I'm just gonna focus on Mom or I'm just gonna focus on baby. I mean, generally, I would say, if a kid is, you know, two years and up what we're looking at is really a mature gut microbiome, at least for the most part. So we can focus on the kids protocol for the child, whereas less than two years old. And if breast fed and again, it really just depends like I look at, how much is the child breast fed versus eating solids? So what's going on there and how much exposure they have to what's happening in Mom and then for really little ones? I mean, I've had a number of them that are just a few months old and in those, you know, absolutely. I'm gonna look at mom first, but yeah, it really is case by case.

spk_1:   27:59
Yeah, which is easy to do when your one on one with someone When it's very you know, the nice thing is about kids that are young is that there's a short history here. And so that's easy to go through the entire history with a fine tooth comb and find exactly where things started presenting, how they make sense and really just that alone is so helpful. Or Iran Mom like, if I could give you some advice to start today like sit down and assess your own history, When did this pop up? If you haven't thought about that yet, you may have some major ah ha moments. I

spk_0:   28:25
think that's really important. I'm talking to you. A family. The end of this week For the first time, they filled out my intake questionnaires, all of that. And I One of the things that is part of my intake questionnaire is the timeline that generated. So we get to see the persons history, so their health part like where they are today, mapped against events in their life. This little one is about six or seven years old, so we do have a little bit of a history and one of the first things on that timeline is mold exposure, and so I haven't talked to the family about this yet, But I always find that fascinating, you know, and we're talking a lot about the gut and what's happening in the gut Microbiome. It's very possible that there are some environmental exposures that air playing a significant role as well. And you know, this is why I think it's important to really resolve what's happening with your skin. It is an inside job, and the gut is a primary root cause of the problem. But there are other issues as well that could be happening at the same time. Compounding the issue. And the way I look at it as well, is that we mentioned 70 to 80% of your immune system's located in your gut microbiome. And so if you have problems there, it's going to weaken your immune system overall, which means that anything that you come in contact with has more of a chance to trigger something. So, you know, again, I feel like we go back and look at the gut regardless, because skin is a good issue. But at the same time we do look for those other factors, you know, whether it's mold or food allergies. So we've got your I G reactions, you know, which could be those an awful, active, life threatening ones. So things like that that we need to look out for in addition to exploring what's happening in the gut.

spk_1:   29:56
Sometimes I like to say I don't know how these unicorns kind of find us, but the majority of people that I've worked with their often aware of what's going on. But if someone is not very aware or not in to know what's going on or does not really see those doesn't really see how some of those things relate, it just might mean that it's gonna take a little longer because the person on the other end is the detective. Like you live with this person, and so when you're able to relay important information because you see it is important, it's going to accelerate your speed, and that's okay if someone's not to that point. But I want to bring that in there because just being aware of what's going on significantly accelerates improvement.

spk_0:   30:29
I you know, I agree, and that's so interesting because I have so many moms and dads, You know, for that matter, that you will give me information, and then they sort of do that. Oh, my gosh. I'm sorry. This is probably too much. And my m o is It's never too much information. I don't care how unimportant you think it might be. You don't know. You never know what this could mean. So I asked for anything and everything. You know, if somebody just has a random thought, you know, something popped up, let me know it might mean something. And then I do find over time, You know, you get these like a string of just these little random pieces of information and then you start looking at them together and you start connecting the dots and other things start to make a lot of sense. Yeah, So it's really interesting. There's a lot of detective work that's involved, and it's really a collaborative process. It's a team effort. So, you know, I look at my client's as my team members were doing this together, and it does. It takes a village. It really does.

spk_1:   31:23
Yeah, the more responsibility in, like, a positive way. Don't make affiliates all on your shoulders. It just helps. But I love that you said that because that's actually my favorite part of everything of the detective work in finding the gray area that someone else missed. And it's funny how, as you sort of stated that, how these things sort of start to represent themselves in case after case after case. And I'm like, Oh, I'm pretty sure this is related to this, but it's not right. It's not really well recognized outside of this. Like, for example, where does this skin issue percent I'm like, Well, I have some hypotheses about where your skin issue presents related to, like what their cause may or may not be or how it looks. And that's a challenging thing. You're working with more skin issues that I'm usually looking at exam a typically kind of depends. And we're using that one definition to characterize actually many conditions, right, like there are many sub conditions under that, which is why I think that's one of the challenges with research historically is that we're not getting specific enough, and so we're kind of getting like mixed results. But if we would put more subtypes together, we can probably make a little more progress as well, and that will come. But it will take a long, long, long time for it to Gail Tall Mountain. So,

spk_0:   32:29
yeah, absolutely. But I think that's an interesting point. Is one of the first questions I ask folks when I start working with them is, Do you have any official diagnoses? You know, did your doctor diagnoses with anything? And I always like to understand that information because it does start pointing you in the right direction and then, from a undertaking, a functional approach to it. We can look at whatever that diagnosis is and then start tracing back. You know, we look backwards for those root causes and in why that's happening. So I do find it helpful to understand if there's a diagnosis of some sort. But you're right when I'm looking at skin rashes. A skin rash has roots in the gut. And so I don't say it doesn't matter what skin condition, but generally, if somebody comes to me with skin complaints, I'm gonna look at their gut. So it is sort of grouped a little bit into different categories. But then, of course, you know when you're looking at interventions for whatever the skin rash, for example, is those might be it a little bit different, depending on what they are like. I might do different things topically for Exam A that I would for psoriasis work, something that is more yeast based. You might do something a little bit different, but internally, when you're looking at the gut, it's like you take that look at the gut and then I should mention this to It's so many parents. They've tried everything. They've tried all these online protocols, different programs. I talked to somebody this morning that you know, was trying a protocol from a practitioner. And the problem is that, you know, often we're looking for these one off things that we find online. You totally good intention, of course, but we're looking at these programs that aren't specific toe what's happening with you with your child? I have not had two clients ever with the exact same protocol. Of course, there are certain different nutrition recommendations or supplement recommendations that I make or sort of my general recommendation list, but it has not been the exact same for any two people that I have ever worked with. There's always something just a little bit different. And this is why you know, that customized approach works a lot better than something that you find online because it's actually customized for what's happening with your body. So taking that deeper look and customizing it to your biochemistry to your gut microbiome to whatever we're looking at for your root causes, like your root causes air gonna be a little bit different than somebody else's. Everybody has a unique gut microbiome. It's a CZ. Unique is your fingerprint. So we just need to take the individual personalized approach in order to result. These types of issues,

spk_1:   34:51
I think that's a great point. And I wanted to say that although, like, I completely echo what you say there. And the other tricky thing is that people will continue to try these protocols. But the length of time it might take a one person to see some results from something is going to be different than the other person link, which is essentially the same version of what you just said. But okay, for example, had this boy this morning, and he's a pretty severe case, a little bit older and, as you know, has a history of a lot of emergency room visits due to significant allergic reactions. That's a very different case than someone who's too as Exuma in there. You know, elbows and knees. And that tells me we're going to be a lot more patients, right. When you're more severe, you're gonna need to be a little bit more patient, not complacent, but more patient and realistic for hate. Where you're at is gonna take a little bit longer to get things even going because you're starting. That may be a lower rung on the ladder, so yeah, absolutely. That brings me to another one. And I just wanna comment. I'm glad you mentioned some topical stuff because I think that's one of the pros and cons right to skin issues is that you're not only dealing with what's on the inside like many other conditions, you're dealing with what's on the outside, too, and it matters because there's a skin micro bomb. I mean, dermatologists, that's their game, right? Is the extra skin, microbiome and and other stuff. So I think we should address the topic ALS, and that's where usually people are looking at anyway. So I also think that in someone's provide, because you can speed up how skin heals with offering some support topically. So

spk_0:   36:16
yeah, no, I absolutely agree. And I find that interesting, too, because and again, everybody is different here is well like. Generally, I recommend not using coconut oil on the skin because it's extremely anti microbial and it disrupts the skin microbiome. So we've got, like you mentioned all this, you know, healthy, hopefully healthy bacteria that lives on our skin, and it protects our skin barrier. And so when that microbiome gets out of balance, the barrier can break down. We lose moisture and were more prone to skin rashes like exam of, for example. So what happens, though, like a lot of people with exam attended have higher colonization of staff on the skin. It just I don't know exactly why, but that's the thing. And so, like, I recommend not using coconut oil. But a lot of people that use coconut oil do find it helpful, and again, it's because it has those anti microbial properties. So that's just, um example, like different things work for different people, you know. I also recommend against using essential oils on the skin. And essential oils are in so many different products that are marketed. Four kids, four skin rashes and it's just something to be careful with. You know, I find that so many people cause exam is classified as an a topic condition, along with allergies and asthma. And so when we're talking about essential oils and the plants that they come from, a lot of people that are sensitive that have allergies can have reactions to a lot of these essential oils. You know, for example, like lavender is in so many different things, and it's also a common allergens. So it's just something to look out for. Shea Butter, which is a fantastic moisturizer. I use it, but it's a nut. So if somebody has nut allergies, it could be making things worse. So, yeah, so I think it really is important to take into account the skin microbiome, and you just have to be careful and again take that individual approach to see what works for you.

spk_1:   38:01
Yeah, and some people would say that they improve their excitement from essential oils, But I want to pick about something you said that we haven't talked about it. We don't need to talk about in depth. But I used to burn myself once a year with a central oils where I used to have for a short time. I used steroid cream on my trust in high school, and the skin there is so thin, and the reminder is that essential oils burn me. And so I have a week. It's not like it's a different kind of like a burned rash, you know, it's like, Yeah, it's just like an out tight thing That happens. And so I finally, like, learned after three or four years. Oh, yeah, why not use that anymore? It's not one of those things, like when that one time of year where you need some eucalyptus or whatever that you put it on and get you.

spk_0:   38:42
You're like, Look, forgot about that. I don't, like,

spk_1:   38:44
forgot about the thing right. You have that thin skin there, so you're going to think about because most people who have had a skin issue could probably use steroids at some point, and it's just a side effect of just then the skin. So it is what it is that They just have to be careful with what you put on. So,

spk_0:   38:58
yeah, You know, another thing I should mention to you because this came up with the client I was working with and, you know, they were using something on the skin for their little one, and it seemed to be helping. I don't remember everything that was in the product, but it had red clover in it, and I noticed that red clover isn't a lot of different products for exam. And if you look it up, it's indicated for, you know, helping with skin inflammation. But it's also indicated for use in menopausal women because it increases estrogen levels. So it's kind of like Okay, I don't think that's something you really want to be putting on your little one. You know, you don't really want to raise estrogen levels in your little one. So again, it's about reading labels and paying attention to what's in these things and really connecting the dots. And it's a challenge. It is hard to dio, but, you know, and working with somebody that can help you connect those dots can be really, really helpful, right?

spk_1:   39:47
So you're not expected to be your own case manager because I think that becomes pretty stressful on people which flare skin issues,

spk_0:   39:52
right? Exactly. So

spk_1:   39:54
I think these last couple questions are great. How do we be realistic, Right? How long does it really take to resolve skin rashes? What can you expect during that process? But also and I think this is a perfect question that ties with it. Why don't more providers address skin issues?

spk_0:   40:08
Okay, we'll start with that last one, because I don't know. I think that it's one of the most challenging aspects of health to address. I think it's one that takes probably the longest or almost the longest in comparatively, for example, like and so if we're talking about rebuilding the gut in order to heal the skin, you know a normal, healthy gut, for example, that aligning is built every 2 to 3 weeks. But in somebody that has auto immunity or food sensitivities or other inflammatory health problems like skin conditions, it could be anywhere like 12 weeks or more. And I find that it takes sometimes six months a year over a year to actually get true resolution because, you know, if you're thinking about it. We want to resolve these from the root cause, especially that something that hasn't resolved by some of those. Whatever you find out there, you take some a few foods out of your diet. You take the main triggers out. That doesn't help you use a good moisturizer that doesn't help. You know something deeper is going on. And if we're talking about finding that these issues in the gut and the gut hyper permeability, which is an underlying issue with Exuma, for example, first, in order to heal the gut, not only do we need to address what's happening in there, we have to address those things that air triggering it that are keeping that inflammation going. And so this is why it can take even longer because those triggers air really hard to find. It can be anything. I have this laundry list you after working with people for so long. I just have a list of things that, you know, I start to check off as I'm talking to people, you know, we start with the basics like some of the things that we're talking about, and we can go all the way down to like flooring, you know, stuff in the water. Like, Do you have hard water? Do you have soft water? Do you have an air purifier in your house? Have you ever been exposed? We mentioned mold. You know what kind of trees and grasses air around your house so it can go really deep, and so it can take a long time to resolve. And so what's important, you know, is talking to somebody the other day and they've been on other protocols for, you know, their little one has for eczema. And one of the questions I asked. Okay, Well, how long were you on these protocols? And the mom said a month. And so you know, my reaction to that is a month really isn't long enough to address longstanding issues. And this little one was already eight or nine years old, had skin rashes since infancy. So it does take a longer period of time. So consistency, persistence and patience are really important. But these protocols, in order to make a difference, and it's not like suddenly you're gonna wake up in the morning and your skin rashes air gonna be gone. What? I tend to see is that flares become fewer and further between, and then when they do happen, they're not a severe and they don't last long. So one mom, actually a couple weeks ago, and this little girl, we've been working together for a while. We're coming up to you. I think it's about nine months, and it's exactly that kind of trajectory that I just described. So flares are fewer and further between. Then she got a really severe one, and I got an email from Mom saying She's really flaring. I'm just thinking, Oh my gosh, you know what? Can possibly still be triggering. We've been working on her gut and found lots of imbalances in there. So we're working through that. And then, like two days later, I got another email and Mom was like, Okay, I'm a believer because this was, you know, the flare was bad. Not as bad as when we started, but it was one of the worst when she's had. But it's almost gone already, you know. So that's typically what I see in terms of how the case is progress

spk_1:   43:25
so great to go over that because I think people like sometimes when parents are desperate or they're looking at you with those eyes are like, I remember this couple and like the mom, she got it. But Dad was like, Just tell me that this will heal my daughter's exam. It like I'm like, Yeah, I mean, like, you're doing all the right things. You have no reason to think that it won't. But like sometimes wanting these ultimatums or feeling like they're ultra sure, I mean, I'm there are about I want you to understand exactly how this works so you can continue implementing it because my approach and everyone's a little bit different. But I want to really get someone like a beautiful foundation and get them rolling and then give them the tools to kind of continue it on their own. And that's and so I'm looking for a certain amount of improvement in that time. But then I love getting that email six and nine months later, where it's like Oh my gosh, like finally everything has gone like, yeah, you know, because it's so hard to sometimes stay positive, and so I just really appreciate that you gave some realistic timelines because he leans. Skin is not short term. And as you said, you're looking for other market. I love the markers. Use that I'm looking for markers that, like I'm looking for mood to look good and sleep together and decrease in. It's like those air, all winning things that

spk_0:   44:29
were or so and those tend to happen for one of the first things I see are improvements and sleep improvements and mood improvements and behavior. Those tend to happen first. ATT Least that's what I've seen. And then skin slowly starts to follow. Also in a lot of the little ones. And you mentioned this earlier on and I did want to come in and got out, But you were talking about paying attention to what's happening in the stool and so we can have skin symptoms with no gut symptoms whatsoever. And I like to point that out because, like you had mentioned, you know, you're talking to somebody and oh, I have exam on. You know, that's the only complaint or skin rashes of some sort. And, you know, here we are. Okay, we're gonna do a stool tests and people are like, Well, what do you talking about? So it's that whole explanation of what's happening in the gut, but a lot of little ones. And I think it is kind of hard to tell. Especially the little one is still in diapers and things get mashed in there anyway. It's like, Is this a soft stool? Is it softer than should be for a little one? So I think there are a lot of questions around that, too. But yeah, so I noticed.

spk_1:   45:28
Yeah, you know, sometimes after work really wonderfully with the other provider. Because sometimes there's blood in the stool, and you need to make sure that there's not some other significant thing that needs to be so anyway,

spk_0:   45:39
a lot of

spk_1:   45:39
pieces there. Yes, Jennifer, I loved this conversation. It was so fun for me. I hope it was fun for you, too, I hope, I believe. And I hope that the listeners also really enjoyed it, and they can share it with their friends that are dealing with this, and I hope they will find a lot of support and inspiration and great messages in it. Where can people find you?

spk_0:   45:58
So my website is Jennifer Carron brand dot com. Karen is spelled a little funny, but you can spell it pretty much any way, and it'll come up. But it's so it's Jennifer c a r y n b r a n d dot com or if you typed in k r E n that will come up to it. Took care of that, I figured, just in case. Also, healthy skin comes from within dot com will get you to Mia's. Well, I'm on instagram, which is where I do most of my social media. I post something on there every day, and I tried Thio give these informative tips and things to try, and I talk a lot about the gut Microbiome and they get into a lot of detail. I'm a gut microbiome nerd, so I'm always looking at research to find out like what Got bugs do what and which ones play roles and certain things. So on Instagram, I am Jennifer Carron brand, So it's J E N N I f e r c a r y n b r A and e.

spk_1:   46:51
Well, Jennifer, thank you so much for coming on today. I look forward to Chinese again.

spk_0:   46:55
Thank you for having me. This was also

spk_1:   46:57
one of the best gift you could give us at the less stress life is your feedback. We are paid in podcast reviews. If you enjoy this or any other episode, please leave us a review in the iTunes store or from your podcast app. Just search for less dressed life as if you're not already subscribed. Click on the banana Face image scroll to the bottom, where it shows the text of other reviews and write a review while you're there. Hey, make sure you hit. Subscribe for Android or stitcher users. You gotta go to the desktop site and search for less dress life and then scroll down to leave a review. Stitcher doesn't load Apple reviews on their site, so if you want, you can leave a review in both places. Your feedback means a lot to the success of the show. Thanks so much for taking the time to do that. You rock

Why some kids get eczema and some not?
Differences in an infant gut microbiome compared to adults
Stool testing
Effects on little ones when nursing mom is on a protocol for her health concerns
Passing triggers for skin rashes through breast milk to her little one (not just food triggers!)
What are endotoxins?
Breastfeeding and Helicobacter pylori Infection in Early Childhood: a Continuing Dilemma
The guilt parents (especially moms) have when they have little ones with skin rashes
Die-off symptoms of skin rashes
Tips to avoid skin rashes during pregnancy
Tips to avoid skin rashes for nursing moms
Cautions on using creams, oils, etc on skin
How long will it take to resolve skin rashes?